Help me spend $60k or more...

[BajaSportsmobile]

If you are a Jeep Rubicon guy, you will never be satisfied with a Sprinter, especially a 177" wheel base, not even if you towed the Jeep behind.

As I understand it though, you are wanting to replace the Rubicon.

When John Brindell, now Agile Off-Road President, was still the General Sales Manager at FOX, he bought a new 2014 Jeep Rubicon 4Dr. With access to all the industry goodies he built the Jeep up to be a really amazing adventure/camping/wheeling vehicle.

Just over a year ago, we built an Agile Off-Road Long Travel TTB 4X4 E-Series van with SMB Penthouse Top for John - he liked it so much, he left FOX and joined Agile. Give him a call - he will tell you his van rides better than the Rubicon, on and off road. He camped out of that Rubicon with his wife, daughter and big dog for two years - he now prefers the van.

You are on the right track!

[VtSoundman]

( so no one gets pissed, a similiar thread is posted on expo)

I spent the weekend driving all sorts of vans - notes below:

Sprinter : 3500 High Roof EB (the big one with DRW). This 2010 Freightliner model had been worked hard as a delivery van for a Ship/Port company ...with only 125k miles, it still felt tight, responsive and had crisp shifting. The body was beatup pretty bad - trim pieces were missing, the door latches were loose, the seat was partially broken. It was a cargo model with no windows (not even the very back)...very quiet, brakes were a little squishy, but still stopped the empty van well.

No hesitation during acceleration, started right up, and shifted nicely. The most surprising aspect (despite the lack of windows, back up camera's etc,) was that I knew EXACTLY where I was on the road - the van had great visual cues making it easy know where I was in the lane, very easy to maneuver in parking lots, along our tight residential street, etc. The turning radius was incredible - was able to get in/out of my driveway with only a 2 point turn. Very little wheel spin and again - amazing visual cues guiding me into the narrow rock wall lined driveway. Did I mention quiet? Very little engine noise. Some roadnoise, but much less than I was expecting. Handling was surprisingly nimble feeling and confidence inspiring - could easly see my wife driving it. Lots of room inside for all we would want to do...major concerns about overhang & offroad/softroad road even with a 4x package from Sprinter. Driving comfort was good - needed some new shocks/struts. The tires were a little soft too. There was some clunking underneath my feet - made me wonder if it needed bushings or ball joints of some sort, but it still drove nice & tight.

As a side note, I did drive a 4x version earlier this year - a fully loaded 2500 ~144WB wagon version. Nice vehicle - surprisingly louder than the 2010 3500 (and much tighter than the one I drove).

Chevy Express Duramax RB This was a 2011(?) factory Duramax with the Allison - fully loaded/spec'd out with power everything and ~120k miles - also a cargo van (no windows except the rear doors). Overall, in pretty decent shape. Obviously used as a contractor van, but the guy really seemed to take care of it.

The steering was a little stiffer than I'm used to in GM trucks. Brakes were typical GM squish, but damn sticky - wow they stopped the van on a dime. Much more responsive than the Sprinter & Transit vans and confidence inspiring. With the Duramax, that thing really moved - engine noise was pronounced at idle and on highway under load. Moving along at 30-35mph, it wasn't bad. Not sure how much insulation would help with noise emanating from dog house.

Visual cues were not nearly as good. Felt like a much larger vehicle - even though it was several feet shorter than the Sprinter, it felt bigger. Could use some new shocks,

Driving comfort was OK - lack of tilt or telescoping wheel (forget which) was annoying and slightly uncomfortable. I'm 6' and found the seating position/steering wheel positioning to be OK - but would likely be uncomfortable for my long legged 5'8" wife. Am not really sure how big the opening would be if fitted with Fiberline 24" top - looked like there was quite a bit of structure that would intrude on the opening.

2016 Ford Transit - 350 Mid Roof Mid Length Wagon - This one had the Turbo V6 in it. Damn it was fast - felt the fastest of the bunch (may not actually be faster than the Duramax, but it was snappier). Much nicer driving than the Chevy and it was on par with the Sprinter - but really really quiet. Little if any road noise, a little wind noise, but pretty close to the quietest van I've ever been in. Visual cues were OK - slightly better than the Chevy, but all the curves of the front windows were a little misleading. In time, I'm sure it would be fine. (Sprinter was the best with the shortest learning curve). Braking was nice & predictable - but would have liked the Chevy's brakes on a van this size. Cockpit comfort was great - everything was in reach & cupholders everywhere. Nicely thought out. No qualms about taking this thing thousands of miles on pavement - incredibly low. ~6" of ground clearance this thing needs a 4" lift (incl tires) to make it usable offroad. The big ole EB model - holy smokes, it better be a lot higher or I would dragging over just about everything, including getting into my driveway. Not really a big fan of putting the batteries under the driver seat - would prefer that space be available for me.

Other things of note: no side opening barn doors on mid & high roof models (only slider). No downward opening windows - only those weird side opening windows that are mid-glass (and will allow rain in if open & stopped). The interior height is very impressive...

Ford EB E350 5.4 V8 Next on my list to drive. I've driven them in the past, but not recently....there are several used machines in the area. Wish I could find a 4x4 SMB owner nearby that would let me check it out.

Overall Conclusions
Just based on this weekend's driving...
Transit - hands down IF AND ONLY IF it can be lifted out of the weeds. Given its lack of ground clearance, I'd honestly be concerned about its ability to deal with moderate amounts of snow/slush during a decent snow storm or mountain pass. The Transit is every bit as good as the Sprinter w/o the Merc markup - and in some cases it felt better when I did some simulated evasive maneuvers. (Scared the crap outta the sales guy). Sprinter had better visual cues. Comfort in the Transit was a little better - nice radio. Cockpit feel - meh, about the same. Transit had better accoutrements for the driver & passenger (cup holders, gadgets/technology). Hard to tell which would be better if having to log many hours.

Any sort of more serious offroading, trail driving etc - it is a lifted Ford (or Chevy) van...hands down, no contest, do not pass go. My wife and I will need to discuss the 'use cases' for which we see using our adventure van...

[VtSoundman]

Some add'l info I found out today from those that do business with Quad & Quigley:

Quigley 4x4 conversions:
- Use a fair amount of 'Quigley parts'.
- Customer can get parts, but only at the speed & expense of UPS/FEDEX
- Mass produced - which is great.
- Quality is usually outstanding
- Ride is far from great on the e-series.
- Transit ride is decent


Quad : Uses all Ford Parts
- Best ride between Quigley & Quad
- Far superior build quality & parts used
- Rarely have any issues

Agile:
- Still researching.
- Did have some correspondence, but it was limited.
- Note: All seem to agree they have the best ride of all the E-Series conversions. This may check the highway manners box better than others. Need to understand the use of Ford parts vs custom vs available at '4x shops' vs commonly available at Napa...

UJoint
- No info from UJoint directly - haven't spoken to them yet.
- They are on the opposite coast from me. Makes selecting them as a vendor a tough prospect as there is not replacement for hands/eyes on product - despite the solid reputation.

Transit Conversion & Quad : Seems like they are hard to do business with, but the owner bends over backwards once you're a customer - seems like the initial transaction is difficult. Per my conversations, a 4" lift from Quad is a long ways off or not at all. He had lots of issues getting the 4" lift done. The Quad Transit conversion is a solid product, but Quad is in the midst of getting some parts re-designed and is taking a very long time to get it done to the point that he is losing orders & business. Quad has not responded to any of my attempts to communicate over the past week or so.

[VtSoundman]

Originally Posted by BajaSportsmobile

If you are a Jeep Rubicon guy, you will never be satisfied with a Sprinter, especially a 177" wheel base, not even if you towed the Jeep behind.

Can you expand on this a bit? I think I understand your logic, but need a biut more info.

Also, would you mind commenting on the use of Ford specific parts and which ones are not on your kits? I think I've read the TTB is not longer mfr'd by Ford or Dana - so where are you sourcing yours?

What about spares/replacements? I'm most concerned about bearings, wear parts (ex bushings, ball joints) etc. Brackets welded to the frame don't concern me as much.

When I did a similar exercise on my Chevy, I made sure I was able to cite a specific vehicle (ex: Tie rods from a 1986 K30 4x4 350..etc). I've had the most issues when giving Napa a PN (ex: specific bearing PN for an axle).

[Annie O]

IMHO kids belong in a tent Of course some kids will sleep right through a midnight thunderstorm and others will come visiting.

And my dog always slept in the tent vestibule. Ok except the time at Red River Gorge where it got down to zero and she kept my feet warm.

[Wrinkledpants]

I'd be curious to know why you would be leaning a Transit when you can get a lifted Sprinter 4x4 in the lengths you want. 5 yr 100K engine warranty. Can extend the factory Mercedes warranty out to 7 years 175K miles bumper to bumper for $4K. Add a 2nd alternator, use a single fuel source, factory block heater, a billion different options available. All sorts of safety features built in. Better resale.

[VtSoundman]

Originally Posted by Annie O

IMHO kids belong in a tent Of course some kids will sleep right through a midnight thunderstorm and others will come visiting.

And my dog always slept in the tent vestibule. Ok except the time at Red River Gorge where it got down to zero and she kept my feet warm.

Yup Yup...once they are old enough to be on their own, they'll love the freedom of the tent - but that is few years off. Depends on the trip - we may all be in the tent too...but if we are road tripping to Alaska or Maine in the dead of winter, a tent becomes an improbable abode. We travel/camp year round in all conditions.

We've always been intent on integrating our kids fully into our lives and not completely losing ourselves in the process. Among my circles, it seems like the families that become 100% kid centric lose them themselves along they way and don't have the happiest marriages. My wife and I see the van as a means to make getting outdoors easier (its all ready to go - just jump in the van).

Rusty, our trusty pup, prefers to keep a watchful eye - and I've trained him to 'watch' my son. He doesn't like to be far from visual contact from any of us...unless there is another big playful dog nearby, then he turns into a goof ball. He loves to play.

[VtSoundman]

Originally Posted by Wrinkledpants

I'd be curious to know why you would be leaning a Transit when you can get a lifted Sprinter 4x4 in the lengths you want. 5 yr 100K engine warranty. Can extend the factory Mercedes warranty out to 7 years 175K miles bumper to bumper for $4K. Add a 2nd alternator, use a single fuel source, factory block heater, a billion different options available. All sorts of safety features built in. Better resale.

Good questions - these help to suss out flaws in my the logic.

Here is mine:
It really comes down to parts & service availability. I did some quick informal searches on places that can service a Sprinter in places we like to travel - and they were far fewer than Ford. There is no comparison - it was orders of magnitude different. I found out that not all the Merc dealers will work on a Sprinter.

(As a side note, the Freightliner dealers I called will only work on Freightliner badged Sprinters. Same with Dodge).

I also did an informal survey of Sprinter Maintenance items - Sprinter was 3-4x the price.

Resale hasn't been too much of a factor in my logic yet - I see traditional vehicles as sunk costs and will try to purchase used vehicles only (let someone else pay depreciation, etc). If the vehicle is the right purchase, we will run it into the ground. Sportsmobile branded adventure vans carry a premium, but DIY (regardless of quality) don't share the same premium.

I understand the wty value - and damn glad I bought an extended wty for my Jeep (front axle imploded when the locker mechanism failed; have had all front end wear components replaced 3x on their dime; a few major oil leaks;cooling issues). Thankfully it happened when I was close to a dealer, but then again Jeep dealers are far more common than Sprinter qual'd Merc service centers. Without a decent network, it diminishes its value.

Does that make sense? What do you think of my logic?

[86Scotty]

I agree with ALL of your logic. I drive lots of vans at work and think about them way too much probably . Taking a new Sprinter far off the beaten path is why I don't already have one.

I don't love the looks but I'm pretty blown away by the walkaround and just a quick cockpit check of the Transit. I haven't driven one. If only they get some aftermarket support as the E-series inevitably dies off and you can make one look and perform like a 4x Econoline, or at least a less than dainty offroad capable vehicle, I think they will be a worthy successor. I wouldn't have said this a year ago.

[BroncoHauler]

Any of the newer rigs body-on-frame?


Herb