storm Brakes

[deminimis]

Brake fade happens when brake fluid get hot from heavy use. The hot fluid can cause the rubber brake lines to to loose shape by expanding when under pressure (mild ballooning -think of a blood vessel right before a stroke). Instead of 100% of the brake pressure going to the caliper pistons, a portion is being lost to the expanding brake lines. Stainless braided brake lines significantly reduce or cure brake fade. This is a situation that really expresses itself with motorcycles (Lolo Pass is a great place to test this out). The difference when switching to stainless braided on bikes is very noticiable. If you are having brake fade problems on your SMBs, you might want to consider replacing your rubber lines with stainless braided lines. Very cheap when compared to complete brake upgades. I run SS lines on my buggy and street bike and even with the heavy on-off braking, I never experience fade. I'm also a fan of good pads (like EBC). Not sure if EBC makes them for our rigs, but might be something worth considering as well.

[Ford_6L_E350]

Originally Posted by deminimis

Brake fade happens when brake fluid get hot from heavy use. The hot fluid can cause the rubber brake lines to to loose shape by expanding when under pressure (mild ballooning -think of a blood vessel right before a stroke). Instead of 100% of the brake pressure going to the caliper pistons, a portion is being lost to the expanding brake lines. Stainless braided brake lines significantly reduce or cure brake fade. This is a situation that really expresses itself with motorcycles (Lolo Pass is a great place to test this out). The difference when switching to stainless braided on bikes is very noticiable. If you are having brake fade problems on your SMBs, you might want to consider replacing your rubber lines with stainless braided lines. Very cheap when compared to complete brake upgades. I run SS lines on my buggy and street bike and even with the heavy on-off braking, I never experience fade. I'm also a fan of good pads (like EBC). Not sure if EBC makes them for our rigs, but might be something worth considering as well.

I thought most brake fade occured when the pads got too hot and started either outgassing (causing the pads to float over the disc) or the pad simply stopped gripping as tightly from the heat.

Brakes also fade completely when the fluid gets hot and boils any moisture that is present. Then, the gas (steam) takes up all the displacement of the master cylinder and you have NO brakes.

I'll agree that stainless braided lines can make a big difference, but they make a difference long before the brakes start to overheat.

Mike

[BroncoHauler]

When I went to SS brake lines on my Ducati, the braking definetly improved, but long before brake fade could have even been an issue.

It was my understanding that the SS brake lines improve braking (compared to rubber lines) as rubber lines swell due to the fluid pressures inside them, robbing the calipers of some of the fluid pressure they should be seeing. The SS lines maintain their diameter even when subjected to high internal fluid pressures.


Herb

[deminimis]

You've probably seen the night pics from LeMans with the glowing rotors. Way hotter temps than we'll likely ever experience, but their brakes keep working. Rubber lines (unreinforced) get hot from the very hot fluid and that is where much of the hydaulic pressure is lost as the line expands under pressure (less pressure to the caliper pistons is the result requiring one to push down further on the brake peddle). Other factors like you pointed out may come into play too, but when it comes to bang for the buck, my vote is stainless lines to eliminate most if not all brake fade we're likely to experience. Heck, they are relatively cheap, so why not try 'em and if that doesn't cure it, then move on to the next step.

A little off-topic, but have any of you bleed your brakes yourself? Concerned about bleeding brakes with ABS. Probably not an issue with these rigs, but unsure as I haven't touch them yet. concerned because when it comes to my street bike (ABS, proportional and vacuum assisted, so its complicated), a vacuum bleeder is required otherwise the works get screwed up (and there is a rather lengthy proceedure to get it right -don't follow the procedure and the brakes don't work correctly). So, wondering if I can just do the usual getting the wife to press the peddle while I bleed or if I will have to get serious. Thanks.

[deminimis]

Herb, still got your Duc? Any Laguna plans this Summer? Sorry for the hijack. Thinking I might trailer down there (I've never trailered my street bike before, but the thought of sleeping on that dusty ground in a tent again, when I have a perfectly good SMB, well pride can take a back seat).

[daveb]

I also have read this as Mike posted but the brake lines are an issue also. Even though I have yet to switch to SS braided lines, my long term braking, such as a long downhill grade improved quite a bit but the biggest gain I saw was having to make a hard stop in that situation. It seems to have made a vast improvement but with so many variables I can't say for sure. All I do know is during a close collision I lost the braking and since the upgrade I've had the brakes preform better (or normal) in worst conditions dealing with hot rotors. Maybe I'm missing something which is very possible. I plan to switch to braide lines during the next tire rotation. At least I don't think that braided lines were part of the upgrade???
DaveB

Originally Posted by Ford_6L_E350

I thought most brake fade occured when the pads got too hot and started either outgassing (causing the pads to float over the disc) or the pad simply stopped gripping as tightly from the heat.

Brakes also fade completely when the fluid gets hot and boils any moisture that is present. Then, the gas (steam) takes up all the displacement of the master cylinder and you have NO brakes.

I'll agree that stainless braided lines can make a big difference, but they make a difference long before the brakes start to overheat.

Mike

[fun2fly]

I did some research on the ECB pads. These pads are semi-low dust Kevlar based pads. The linke below talks about them through the retailer "perfect Brakes".

http://www.perfectbrakes.com/brakesforh ... edcars.asp

The guy i spoke to was very knowledgeable. He recommended the "yellow stuff" pads for the front and the normal pads for the rear. They are on the expensive side, but it is cheaper than upgrading the brakes. I am going to try them to see how the braking improves.

Front pads P/N: DP41266R $136.16 per pair
Rear pads P/N: DP61787 $86.32 per pair
He also told me about an outfit in California that makes stainless Steel brake lines. I haven't checked them out yet. But the name of the shop is: Crown Performance Brakes.

Tony

[deminimis]

I must admit, I haven't measured, but I suspect you can find the brake lines pre-fabbed from suppilers like Summit Racing and so on (I think they also sell EBC pads). I took a quick look at the stock lines and nothing seemed out of the ordinary, size-wise.

One last pitch for stainless (yes, the horse is dead but the flogging will continue). On my dirtbike, I run EBC pads. I also have drilled rotors, but factory rubber lines. I get horrible brake fade (so much so the rear becomes nearly worthless). Switched out my front line with a new stock line and immediately noticed some improvement up front, but the fade still comes. I believe given that everything else is top notch but for the rubber lines, its the rubber lines that are the part of the system that are failing (well, that and my fat a$$). I even flush the system with new Dot 4, but the fade continues.

Thanks for the EBC part numbers!

[BroncoHauler]

Originally Posted by deminimis

Herb, still got your Duc? Any Laguna plans this Summer? Sorry for the hijack. Thinking I might trailer down there (I've never trailered my street bike before, but the thought of sleeping on that dusty ground in a tent again, when I have a perfectly good SMB, well pride can take a back seat).

The Duc left the house some time ago. It was part of my single days, before I became "responsible".

It was a '91 907ie with carbon fiber pipes, an upgraded fuel injection computer chip, and a free flow air box. I loved how that bike ran and sounded. I rode up to Laguna Seca I think in '93 or '94 with a bunch of friends for the motorcycle Grand Prix and had a great time. Would make for an interesting SMB road trip!

[Internet picture, not of my own bike]


Herb

[deminimis]

What do you mean "responsible?" Heck married with two kids so the responsible thing for me to do was to buy them little 50's (the four, now five-year-old still has training wheels on his 50). Never sell a bike without first having a replacement already in the garage...never! I think it applies to SMBs as well. The new Ducs are mighty fine (just planting the seed).