Lithium Build Parts/Makes List

[Backcountryguy]

TomH, I think two of the batteries below, using one external BMS, will suffice for our purposes. it helps that the price for each is somewhat cheaper as well:

Capacity: 300 Amp hours
Dimensions: 24" x 8" x 14.0" overall height including terminals
Weight: 87 pounds
Price with BMS: $4,136.60 USD
Price without BMS:$3,556.82 USD
NOTE: This new model is priced almost $1500 lower than the regular GT 300Ahr battery and over $1000 less than the Standard Series 330Ahr battery

It will also fit underneath the aft, forward facing settee/couch next to the inverter and a small shore (boat talk, really a 110V plug-in) charger. I would like to keep the main electrical in somewhat the same location. It's starting to come together!

[TomH]

Back when I had a Tiger I used to follow the Tiger Owners' Forum regularly. One guy was an electrical guru. He made the statement that most motorhome builders use wiring whose resistance drops the voltage a bit between alternator/battery, battery/systems, etc. By going with 0 gauge or 1/0 gauge wiring, the resistance and voltage drop is significantly reduced. If you and I are putting this much money into the electrical system, it makes sense to pay the tiny bit extra for other components that will maximize performance. I am going to ask if they can do 0 gauge wiring. I also want top end inverter, monitor, system manager, etc. Let's stay in touch.

[TooMuchHair]

Hi, I'm doing an all electric lithium build also. I agree on the concept of throwing a few bucks more at where it matters. The Balmar MC-614 and the MasterVolt AlphaPro III both have optional voltage sense wires to attach directly at the battery terminal to compensate for voltage drop. Getting the main wire sized correctly is always the best idea though.
I really like the MasterVolt inverters and the various Masterbus control options. For example you can monitor amps, alternator and battery temps and adjust every parameter on their external alternator regulator (compatible with other alternators too) on various touch screen control panels ranging from around $300. all of the way to $3K. The Balmar is a nice regulator but programming involves using a magnet to trigger a reed switch on the regulator and watching a numeric display, and it's typically mounted under the hood. Please keep posting updates. Thanks!

[Backcountryguy]

short article on topics already covered, concise information on advantages of lithium (if price is not a defining criteria). Already been said a few times but more information is always better for the decision making process.

The Lowdown on Lithium Batteries

[Backcountryguy]

Interesting statement which seems to be borne out by all lithium sites I've visited. This statement alone makes lithium the way to go for me:

"A single GT12V 600A-8DR battery at 145 pounds will easily replace
6 units of the Concord Lifeline 255 ah 8D batteries at 1100 pounds."

Of course, this higher end battery costs in excess of $9500... Wow! If you go with one of their standard 8D lithium's (450 Ah), that price is approximately $6000.

[VtSoundman]

Originally Posted by Backcountryguy

Interesting statement which seems to be borne out by all lithium sites I've visited. This statement alone makes lithium the way to go for me:

"A single GT12V 600A-8DR battery at 145 pounds will easily replace
6 units of the Concord Lifeline 255 ah 8D batteries at 1100 pounds."

Of course, this higher end battery costs in excess of $9500... Wow! If you go with one of their standard 8D lithium's (450 Ah), that price is approximately $6000.

I hate it when vendors overly exaggerate ... lithium is good, but not that good. Especially when it isn't qualified with the comparison metric.

6 x 255ah = 1530ah of LA (Lifeline 8D LA is 255ah @ 20hr rate)
- if we use the overly conservative value of 50% DoD for an LA, that gives us 765ah of usable LA.

If we ignore current / amp draw effects for a moment (6 8D would permit a very large current draw w/o deleterious energy yield impacts) and design the system assuming a 60% DoD (knowing full well it really won't shorten usable life of LA that much) - we have 913ah.

SO: Our massive 6 x 8D pack will supply 765-913aH of usable energy with decent life cycle and a calendar life of 5-7yrs if treated properly. Most packs end up 'calendaring' out rather than cycling...so most liklely 7yrs.

A lithium ion pack is best served if DoD is ~90%. If you believe the claims that consumer level lithium will last 10yrs or more, the DoD will need to be reduced to about 75-80%. But let's use the 90% figure -> so that 600aH lithium battery is good for 540aH.

So now we are talking apples to apples. The usable capacity of that lithium battery is 540aH. The usable capacity of the lead bank is ~765ah.

A more valid comparison is the 4.2-4.5 of the 8D Lifeline LA vs a single 8D form factor from Lithionics. However, since we can't have fractional batteries, we would need a different case size. (I'd use a different form factor (smaller individual batteries) for both the LA and the Lithium ion anyway).

I saw something interesting in the Lithionics datasheet. The internal resistance of the pack is spec'd at <8mohms. This is pretty high. Looking over a few of their batteries, looks like most of them are spec'd this way. Interesting.

As side note, there is an interesting thread going on over at expeditionportal about these guys : battleborn batteries. $900/100ah. Might be worth a look (no affiliation, no idea as to their rep or quality).

Not trying to damping your enthusiasm...I love lithium batteries and will most likely be installing a medium sized pack (~400ah) in my van too. At the moment, I will be assembling my own pack ... and even with my supply channels, the economics still do not favor a lithium. Energy density & weight will make the decision for me...

...I work in energy storage.

[VtSoundman]

Originally Posted by TomH

Back when I had a Tiger I used to follow the Tiger Owners' Forum regularly. One guy was an electrical guru. He made the statement that most motorhome builders use wiring whose resistance drops the voltage a bit between alternator/battery, battery/systems, etc. By going with 0 gauge or 1/0 gauge wiring, the resistance and voltage drop is significantly reduced. If you and I are putting this much money into the electrical system, it makes sense to pay the tiny bit extra for other components that will maximize performance. I am going to ask if they can do 0 gauge wiring. I also want top end inverter, monitor, system manager, etc. Let's stay in touch.

TomH - good points. Folks often underestimate the voltage drops at the various connections, crimps, and bolted electrical connections. Also ask them to limit the number of connections between the inverter/battery/alternator buy using fuse styles that permit landing directly on device terminals. They might balk at using such large wire (too hard to bend) - tell them find better wire or run multiple conductors in parallel (any single conductor has to be rated to handle the full current - but these conductors should be sized for voltage drop, not capacity). If the alternator to battery run can't be upsized, don't stress - it will just take a little longer to charge. The battery to inverter / solar to battery connections are more sensitive to lost energy (finite source).

Example fuse types: Blue Sea

Little Fuse

[Wrinkledpants]

Originally Posted by VtSoundman

I hate it when vendors overly exaggerate ... lithium is good, but not that good. Especially when it isn't qualified with the comparison metric.

6 x 255ah = 1530ah of LA (Lifeline 8D LA is 255ah @ 20hr rate)
- if we use the overly conservative value of 50% DoD for an LA, that gives us 765ah of usable LA.

If we ignore current / amp draw effects for a moment (6 8D would permit a very large current draw w/o deleterious energy yield impacts) and design the system assuming a 60% DoD (knowing full well it really won't shorten usable life of LA that much) - we have 913ah.

SO: Our massive 6 x 8D pack will supply 765-913aH of usable energy with decent life cycle and a calendar life of 5-7yrs if treated properly. Most packs end up 'calendaring' out rather than cycling...so most liklely 7yrs.

A lithium ion pack is best served if DoD is ~90%. If you believe the claims that consumer level lithium will last 10yrs or more, the DoD will need to be reduced to about 75-80%. But let's use the 90% figure -> so that 600aH lithium battery is good for 540aH.

So now we are talking apples to apples. The usable capacity of that lithium battery is 540aH. The usable capacity of the lead bank is ~765ah.

A more valid comparison is the 4.2-4.5 of the 8D Lifeline LA vs a single 8D form factor from Lithionics. However, since we can't have fractional batteries, we would need a different case size. (I'd use a different form factor (smaller individual batteries) for both the LA and the Lithium ion anyway).

I saw something interesting in the Lithionics datasheet. The internal resistance of the pack is spec'd at <8mohms. This is pretty high. Looking over a few of their batteries, looks like most of them are spec'd this way. Interesting.

As side note, there is an interesting thread going on over at expeditionportal about these guys : battleborn batteries. $900/100ah. Might be worth a look (no affiliation, no idea as to their rep or quality).

Not trying to damping your enthusiasm...I love lithium batteries and will most likely be installing a medium sized pack (~400ah) in my van too. At the moment, I will be assembling my own pack ... and even with my supply channels, the economics still do not favor a lithium. Energy density & weight will make the decision for me...

...I work in energy storage.

LOL at 1,000 lbs of lead acids.

We simply do not have the space or weight capacity to carry the needed lead acids for winter use. It has nothing to do with economics for us - lead acids means we sacrifice something for winter. Lithiums means we sacrifice nothing for winter. The decision was simple for us.

[VtSoundman]

Originally Posted by Wrinkledpants

LOL at 1,000 lbs of lead acids.

We simply do not have the space or weight capacity to carry the needed lead acids for winter use. It has nothing to do with economics for us - lead acids means we sacrifice something for winter. Lithiums means we sacrifice nothing for winter. The decision was simple for us.

Agreed - and this is why I will likely be using Lithiums as well. My issue was with the Vendor making overly exaggerated claims. Li batteries are good enough on their own...

Not bashing or disagreeing with your decision. In fact, I am learning from your process.

[Wrinkledpants]

Originally Posted by VtSoundman

Agreed - and this is why I will likely be using Lithiums as well. My issue was with the Vendor making overly exaggerated claims. Li batteries are good enough on their own...

Not bashing or disagreeing with your decision. In fact, I am learning from your process.

Ah OK. I thought you actually had 1,000 lbs of lead acids.

Yeah - that marketing of a single 600 AH replacing 6 255AH batteries makes zero sense.