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Old 10-14-2016, 10:26 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by MadScience View Post
I have no experience with bumpers. (Hanging
Other, perhaps useful info:

There are (at least) two ways to measure temp on the 4r100, plug in the pan and internal sensor on the exit. A scan-gauge or similar will read the internal one, which is the hottest
point.

It's not uncommon to see temps over 200 there, but I don't think they are great, certainly not for long periods. I wouldn't stress topping out at 200 or 210 for a moment at the end of a big climb. At roughly 230 the pan seal will start seeping, I don't know what happens if you don't let it cool down at that point.

Keep in mind that all of that experience is with my _previous_ transmission. The new one seems to not get as hot and cools much better, probably because it's not clogging the coolers or slipping.

I have yet to do any towing with my new transmission, but without, I'm at 130-160 when previously I was at 180-190. However, given a long enough hill and a heavy foot, temps can still be driven up.

I don't believe too low a temperature is an issue, unless you are under 120, and the transmission won't shift into overdrive, or lock up the converter. If so, put a bit of lexan over part of the cooler during the cold months.

I'm also on a v10, 4r100 (bts now) and the big tru-cool after the oil to water
cooler.

I will preface this by saying I work with Ford daily (engine development) and have spent quite some time working this out and this should be taken as my experience...feel free to discuss!

The temp sensor that all the tuners and ECM correlates is the coolest point in the circuit.....it's in the return loop from the coolers in the solenoid block. The pan temp is oil that has been fed through the solenoids and is again waiting to go to the pump/coolers.

Ford designed the transmission to have a 275ºF thermal limit for the temp of the fluid at the sensor location. Nobody will argue that is too hot, but it can run 250ºF all day long without permanent damage to the trans components. If your pan is seeping at 230ºF, the gasket or bolt torque is likely compromised.

Low temp related running issues are also not a problem...if the temp is too low and there is too much restriction in the external coolers, the cooler bypass valve will open on the side of the trans and allow lube to bypass the cooler circuit completely. Conversely, if the CBV is not in good operating condition, it has been known to stick in a partially open position causing a slight bypass of the cooler circuit and leading to higher (uncontrollable) trans temps. There is a ton of info on this available, but the CBV will allow lube to the trans in all conditions and all temps.

My personal 4R100 with the Tru-Cool runs 130ºF in the city (Southern California) and has zero problems locking the converter or shifting into overdrive even with much cooler trans temps. I push the vehicle very hard offroad and rarely see 200ºF now compared to the 240ºF I saw with the stock cooler. For comparison, my father has a 2009 Dodge Cummins/6spd auto and it sees 220ºF offroad frequenty (he does drive it quite hard/fast).

My takeaway from all this.....make sure your stock setup is maintained regularly and in proper working order and you will be fine. The gauges and monitors only allow you to worry about what you see....it was never a problem before you saw it (mostly talking about me here!).

Scott

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Old 10-14-2016, 10:39 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by REDOVAL View Post
The gauges and monitors only allow you to worry about what you see....it was never a problem before you saw it (mostly talking about me here!).
Totally agree. Damn scangauge just gives me more shit to worry about!

My 4R100 will see 240 offroad or steep twisty climbing on pavement.. But it cools down once I get into easier terrain.

I would like to get it a bit cooler, so Tru-Cool might be in my future, I'll add it to the list.
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Old 10-14-2016, 10:46 AM   #13
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Totally agree. Damn scangauge just gives me more shit to worry about!

My 4R100 will see 240 offroad or steep twisty climbing on pavement.. But it cools down once I get into easier terrain.

I would like to get it a bit cooler, so Tru-Cool might be in my future, I'll add it to the list.
It was a benefit for my setup, primarily because I see a lot of wheel spin in sand and fast terrain that loves to eat up transmissions. The installation was not difficult, but was quite involved.

If you take it that far apart....might as well throw some Vantage Optics headlights back on (sorry couldn't resist that shameless plug)!

vantageoptics

Scott
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Old 10-14-2016, 11:20 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by REDOVAL View Post
The temp sensor that all the tuners and ECM correlates is the coolest point in the circuit.....it's in the return loop from the coolers in the solenoid block. The pan temp is oil that has been fed through the solenoids and is again waiting to go to the pump/coolers.
Interesting, that does not correlate to what I am seeing with both a scan gauge and a sensor in the test port. The test port is almost always cooler by a good bit.

I want to make sure I understand this correctly, here's a diagram I found:



Source: Anatomy of a Transmission: Oil Flow in the Pump-PR-Converter-Cooler Lube Circuits - Sonnax which references the e4od, so it's hopefully not totally different.

I suppose I should dig up the service manual and try to correlate the points in the diagram to the actual sensor locations. Might do that tonight, I do want to understand this correctly.
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Old 10-14-2016, 11:47 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by MadScience View Post
Interesting, that does not correlate to what I am seeing with both a scan gauge and a sensor in the test port. The test port is almost always cooler by a good bit.

I want to make sure I understand this correctly, here's a diagram I found:



Source: Anatomy of a Transmission: Oil Flow in the Pump-PR-Converter-Cooler Lube Circuits - Sonnax which references the e4od, so it's hopefully not totally different.

I suppose I should dig up the service manual and try to correlate the points in the diagram to the actual sensor locations. Might do that tonight, I do want to understand this correctly.
Simply put, the return line from the cooler circuit goes directly into the solenoid block and sensor location on the 4R100 trans. It is located in the rear of the pan towards the passenger side. Pic shows return line and solenoid block orientation, temp sensor is in the solenoid block.

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Old 10-14-2016, 11:54 PM   #16
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I'm trying to educate myself a bit, and also understand why I'm seeing higher temps from the built in sensor vs the one in the test port.

The internal sensor is on the circuit board on the bottom the the solenoid block. So it's basically measuring the temperature in the pan. Nice pictures:

PCM pinout, 1996 F-250 with OBD-II - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums

The cooled fluid return does not just dump back into the pan though, it goes into the gear train first, to cool the stuff that's actually generating heat and could be damaged by it. Which is in line with the sonnax flow. Then it goes into the pan and gets picked up by the pump and sent through the various valve bodies.

The test port is not just past the pump, but since it will show different pressures for different gears, it has to be past at least some of the valves as well.

So, that really doesn't help explain why I'm seeing lower temps at the test port. Unless the calibration on the TOT sensor is dubious, but I'm not convinced of that.

Finally the fluid goes through the torque converter, where I'd expect to see the final, highest temps, but nothing is measuring there.

Hmm, while I feel like I've learned more, this really just seems more confusing now.

I suppose the pan will have a temperature gradient as well, from the front, where the pickup us, to the back, where the TOT sensor is. Hmm...

Redoval, I have nearly the same cooler setup, just some fans in addition:

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Old 10-15-2016, 09:16 AM   #17
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I think I understand now:

The internal sensor is sitting on a pcb in the fluid in the pan. It is really measuring the
temperature of the fluid in the pan (after the cooler and the gears).

The test port is after the pump and much of the valving, but the probe is a metal plug that makes metal to metal contact with the case where it's screwed in. So it will be effected by the case temperature, which while operating, will be less than fluid temperature.

This also explains why having the two get close to each other appears to be a good indicator of an imminent runaway condition.

FWIW, I'm very curious if others can confirm or refute this stipulation, I'm trying to understand this correctly and appreciate the help.
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