Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-19-2013, 12:16 AM   #21
Senior Member
 
MadScience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: SF Peninsula
Posts: 565
Re: Pulling (Recovering) an E-350 by frame, bumper, front hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by carringb
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoVans
Yea, I've seen numerous examples of ripping axles off trying to get trucks unstuck. If you crawl underneath and take a look, you will see that the axles are not actually connected to the van (or truck) by much. Especially it your suspension is a leaf-spring set-up.

Pulling by the axle is NOT recommended.

This is not the axle's fault. This is improper winching and rigging, plain and simple.
Any pointers on how to correctly pull by an axle?

I'm guessing straight on with a winch is better than at 75 degrees with a kinetic strap, but beyond that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by carringb
Turns out I have a little experience in this area:
http://www.bobstowingcorvallis.com/photos
Impressive equipment.
__________________

__________________

'99 EB ex ENG KSWB news van, low rent 4x4 conversion (mostly fixed by now), home built interior.
MadScience is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 07:26 AM   #22
Senior Member
 
shenrie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: boise idaho
Posts: 1,741
Garage
Re: Pulling (Recovering) an E-350 by frame, bumper, front hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadScience
Any pointers on how to correctly pull by an axle?
[redneck voice]mah daddy learned me to never hook anything up to suspension or drivetrain.[/redneck voice]

whether it was helping someone get unstuck (grew up in lots of snow) or even towing (owned a vega). when i was 16, even though i remember him telling me this, lazyness prevaled. i ruined a few lca's and at least one swaybar helping people get unstuck just cause i didnt want to lay on the ground to correctly hook up a recovery strap. i wont hook up to anything but chassis or something properly affixed to it.
__________________

__________________
"understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of your car, oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of your car, horsepower is how hard your car hits the wall, and torque is how far your car moves the wall."
shenrie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 08:26 AM   #23
Senior Member
 
jage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Franktown, CO
Posts: 7,561
Re: Pulling (Recovering) an E-350 by frame, bumper, front hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadScience
Any pointers on how to correctly pull by an axle?
Don't.
__________________
and then
everything changed
jage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 09:22 AM   #24
Senior Member
 
BajaSportsmobile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Rancho Nuevo (Cabo/Todos Santos) B.C.S. and San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,952
Re: Pulling (Recovering) an E-350 by frame, bumper, front hi

Well, If you think about it - what is really "stuck" when you are buried to the hubs in sand or mud is the axles (tires and wheels) not the frame and body. If you pull from the frame, you are putting all that energy through the cable to the frame to the suspension to the "stuck" axle to get the axle to move.

If the van were upside down and stuck in the sand, you wouldn't pull from the axles, so...

I can see where pulling from and axle could make some sense in many situations.

Also, because of pulling angles, pulling from the frame often puts more down force on the stuck vehicle adding to the load to be extracted.
__________________
Four time Baja 1000 winner, four time Baja 500 winner. Solo'ed the Baja 1000 to LaPaz/Cabo twice.
4-Wheeling since 1972, Desert Racing since 1989.

AgileOffRoad.com
BajaSportsmobile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 10:50 AM   #25
Senior Member
 
geoffff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 860
Re: Pulling (Recovering) an E-350 by frame, bumper, front hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajaSportsmobile
Well, If you think about it - what is really "stuck" when you are buried to the hubs in sand or mud is the axles (tires and wheels) not the frame and body. If you pull from the frame, you are putting all that energy through the cable to the frame to the suspension to the "stuck" axle to get the axle to move.
Sounds logical to me. I would think that in most cases, you would want to apply the same load to *both* axles -- which seems complicated.

-- Geoff
__________________
2004 Ford, SMB 4x4, RB-50
http://octopup.org/sportsmobile
geoffff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 11:01 AM   #26
Senior Member
 
jage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Franktown, CO
Posts: 7,561
Re: Pulling (Recovering) an E-350 by frame, bumper, front hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajaSportsmobile
I can see where pulling from and axle could make some sense in many situations.
Stuck or not, the axles have little inertia where as the vehicle itself has a lot. In terms of snatching, this is bad because the body will tend to stay while the axle tends to go. Similar situation I'd think with one axle stuck and one being pulled, the body is going to want to stay with the stuck axle.

Point being, without experience and hefty tow liability, just don't. Get a shovel, call a tow truck or use a jack. Better yet, put good tow points on before going out.
__________________
and then
everything changed
jage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 11:51 AM   #27
Senior Member
 
carringb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Corvallis, OR
Posts: 3,533
Re: Pulling (Recovering) an E-350 by frame, bumper, front hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajaSportsmobile
Well, If you think about it - what is really "stuck" when you are buried to the hubs in sand or mud is the axles (tires and wheels) not the frame and body. If you pull from the frame, you are putting all that energy through the cable to the frame to the suspension to the "stuck" axle to get the axle to move.

If the van were upside down and stuck in the sand, you wouldn't pull from the axles, so...

I can see where pulling from and axle could make some sense in many situations.

Also, because of pulling angles, pulling from the frame often puts more down force on the stuck vehicle adding to the load to be extracted.
This ^

Especially important is noting angle of the pull. If you rig high, you apply downforce which works against getting unstuck. Using a high point as the anchor, and the lowest point possible on the stuck vehicle is essential to pulling it out safely.

If you are ripping out an axle, you are undoubtedly overloading your winch-line and rigging. A couple minutes with a shovel to make a ramp, instead of pulling horizontal to lift a tire vertical out of a hole, will go a long ways too. Its pretty rare that your holding force will be somewhere other than your axles. Maybe if you high-center on a big boulder. That would be a good situation to rig from the chassis.

Not no mention.... You won't trust to your axle to take maybe 3x the static weight of your van (and that is if the chassis is buried) but you trust it not rip out when you hit a pothole at 70 MPH? If that's the case you should probably stay off most freeways in the midwest.
__________________
2000 E350 extended wagon dually
V10 w/ Banks Powerpack, Diablo Predator
Buckstop Outback bumper/grill guard
Reunel rear bumper
carringb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 11:59 AM   #28
Senior Member
 
BajaSportsmobile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Rancho Nuevo (Cabo/Todos Santos) B.C.S. and San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,952
Re: Pulling (Recovering) an E-350 by frame, bumper, front hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by jage
Stuck or not, the axles have little inertia where as the vehicle itself has a lot. In terms of snatching, this is bad because the body will tend to stay while the axle tends to go. Similar situation I'd think with one axle stuck and one being pulled, the body is going to want to stay with the stuck axle.
Not to belabor the point, but because it has me thinking (dangerous by itself), and I think there are real world possibilities for all of us - wouldn't a half buried axle have more inertia than the van sitting on springs above it. Snatching on the body/frame will tend to stress the suspension mounting points potentially leaving the axle behind or causing damage to them.

To carry the idea to an extreme; imagine the situation where you are once again buried to the hubs and the only angle available to pull is a side pull. Pulling on the stuck axle would be far less problematic than pulling from even the strongest anchor point on the frame.
__________________
Four time Baja 1000 winner, four time Baja 500 winner. Solo'ed the Baja 1000 to LaPaz/Cabo twice.
4-Wheeling since 1972, Desert Racing since 1989.

AgileOffRoad.com
BajaSportsmobile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 03:02 PM   #29
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 582
Re: Pulling (Recovering) an E-350 by frame, bumper, front hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by carringb
This is not the axle's fault. This is improper winching and rigging, plain and simple.
Exactly. Which is why I say:

Pulling by the axle is NOT recommended.

I didn't even realize axles had feelings. Geese, am I going to have to sit through a seminar on "axle sensitivity training" now? I gotta say, I've had about all of the sensitivity training I can handle at this point...
__________________
Current: 2014 15 Passenger V8
Former: 2009 SMB 4x4 6.0
TwoVans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 04:01 PM   #30
Senior Member
 
coyotearms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 188
Re: Pulling (Recovering) an E-350 by frame, bumper, front hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by coyotearms
Curt and Drawtite both make bolt-on front hitches with load ratings of 9000 lbs. for pulling. Curt also clearly states limits on the angle of pull (45 degrees to the side and 15 up/down) in their install manual. This makes me nervous, since that is less than the 1.5 factor one is supposed to use for winches, recovery straps and snatch straps. Now my rear Ford factory Class V hitch is 18,000 lbs, which is the rating for all Class IV/V hitches, so getting pulled out of any trouble from behind is no worry. Would love to find such a hitch for the front, otherwise there could be times when it just might be a guess whether anything is going to break! I even wonder if some or all of the massive front bumpers around for the van come close to a class V hitch (especially aluminum ones) since most of us are in need of 10,000 x 1.5 = 15,000 lbs pulling capacity on either end!
I am quoting myself to get this thread back on track, thanks! So if someone wants a front tow point using a front hitch, or use a front hitch with a winch, where does one go to get a hitch that can take it? Yes, I know in some situations recovery using the axle is preferred. If you have an after market bumper with tow hooks and/or hitch, shouldn't you be rethinking that too? We are planning a trip to Alaska this summer, and I need to be prepared.
__________________

__________________
2008 E-350 6.0L diesel: Bought new in 2010, 4x2, 4.10 LSD, HD spring-lift all 'round,
Cruiser II Top, 6'7" inside, full-time upper bed w/ kind'a EB50 layout, cozy 4-season rig
Solar: 540 W of Kyrocera w/ Blue Sky 3024iL, 3x100 AmpHr AGM's
Electrical: 4 cf fridge, nuker, water heater, compressor
Propane: stove top, furnace Travel: http://www.lugnutlife.wordpress.com
coyotearms is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

» Sportsmobile Registry

Woodstock

woodstock

Agnes

ranchero
Add your Sportsmobile
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.