TorkLift StableLoad or Hellwig Rear Sway Bar

[TomsBeast]

I've added rear sway bars to band-aide effect of added weight/changing weight distribution.

Case #1 Nissan king cab pick up, with a 7ft six-pack cabover camper. BTW, don't do this I chased mediocre handling for a while on that rig, added a Hellwig rear swaybar along the way. Those trucks were suspended real soft from the factory. I turned it into a dually, added airbags, better shocks, helper spring, rear sway bar... not until I had a set of custom made rear leaf springs added to it was I happy. Until I took the camper off, then it rode like a buckboard unless I added 400lbs of train track to the bed.

Case #2 1988 Ford 4-door crew cab 1 ton dually, with 13-1/2' Lance cabover camper. I don't know exactly what that monster weighed, but I added airbags and a rear Hellwig swaybar, as I also towed a trailer with 400lb tongue weight. My best recollection is it handled decent.

Case #3 Alfa Romero GTV6 Soft sprung Italian 2+2 touring car, with slight understeer from the factory. It also had lots of body lean, probably to match those rock hard Pirrelli tires it came with when new. I added soft tires to it, which really made the body lean pronounced. Adding a rear sway bar made the back end want to come around if I got on the accelerator too soon after the apex. I added a thicker front bar, and NOW we had something. More toward a neutral handling sportscar.

Case #4 1973 VW Karmann Ghia. I lowered it, added wider wheels and tires both front an rear. Added a thicker front sway bar, no rear bar, it handled better than some Porsche 914's I'd ridden in.

Case #5 My current 96 SMB UJOR 4x4 kit. It's got the stock front swaybar from a 1999 F350 and the UJOR links, my own delrin bushings. It has enough body lean to make it handle in the ice/snow, stays flat enough on the dry where it feels good going onto a freeway cloverleaf on-ramp. I won't be adding a rear sway bar, but will likely add a set of slightly heavier, and taller rear springs (to get rid of the 2" blocks).

case #6 Racing gokarts. The frame IS the suspension, so tuning the suspension on one of those really gets to the fundamentals of what change has what effect. You'd think there isn't much that you can do, but nothing could be further from the truth. My karts had a bumper/swaybar that could be tightened/loosened. The front and rear track width was adjustable with spacers. All the fast guys had this figured out, I was lucky enough to have a good teacher and be a quick study. On a tight technical track, where you want the rear to 'come around' you tighten up the back end swaybar, so the driver can 'steer with the throttle' a little. When the front tires are going away, and the front 'plows' or understeers (and you can't afford new ones just yet) you make the front track narrower, tighten the rear, to make it handle more neutral. Essentially making the front as good as you can, but intentionally making the rear 'worse', resulting in a neutral handling kart. In the rain, when the track sucks? Loosen both front and rear, narrow the track, raise the center of gravity by tipping the seat up, moving any lead ballast you carry up as high as you can, to the most body roll you can get, which loads the outside tires for superior bite (and you run circle around the competition)

My conclusion is you want some understeer in anything but a sportscar or roadracing trackcar, (and that's if you have some training). Unless you add a lot of weight to the rear, up high, adding a rear swaybar should only be done (if at all) if you first increase the front bar diameter as well. Even so, it doesn't make up for too light of a spring (my Nissan in example #1) Reducing body roll too much can make a car or truck want to slide in a turn more easily if the road turns slippery.

I hope that helps.

[James4]

Mike T,

Here are some pictures of the van's rear springs and a couple of side shots that were taken at earlier dates. The one where the top is up is on a level surface. The one in my driveway is on a slope, and it was parked there when I took the pictures a few minutes ago.

James

Left rear:


Left front:


Right rear:


Right front:


Parked on level surface:


Parked on slop in driveway:

[James4]

Tom, I really do appreciate all of the input, and I especially like your conclusion about rear sway bars. Your Alfa note brings back some great memories too!

James

[MountainBikeRoamer]

Hey James ---

Those pictures are very telling.
Your rear leaves are indeed tired (or just plain overloaded), as they're definitely sunken/sagged all the way onto the lower overload springs.

Ironically, this can produce some perceived characteristics of better "cornering," as you've got that extra-stiff bottom spring at play, and this is absolutely decreasing the amount of "lean" in a turn.

But riding all the time on the overload springs is truly bad juju. Over dynamic bumps and suspension cycling, the rear end temporarily unweights itself from those overload springs, then comes crashing back into them. Hitting pavement irregularities will absolutely be felt in your tailbone without adjusting for it with extra-soft tire pressure (not a good idea.)

I'd see what carringb thinks, but my opinion is that you need some rear leaf work/rebuilding before considering anything else.

[James4]

Mike,

Thanks for confirming this for me.

At present I have the new Bilstein B6 HD Shocks, and I have held off on buying new Michelins up to this point. Right now I have the Ford TransForce tires on it that look good, but they are about 7 years old, so I intend to replace them soon. Considering that JoeH and some other members helped me get my tire pressure dialed in to where I get a good ride now...all that I might need to have corrected is the spring issue.

tlg mentioned contacting Agile to see if they have a RIP package for the 2WD, which is as I understand it Fox Shocks and a leaf spring pack. At this point, I'm feeling confident that rearching the existing springs and adding a leaf or two will help me to get better handling on the road. I'm not looking forward to more lean, but then I'm certain that I will have no problem making such an adjustment.

The fellow that I spoke with that does the rearching also is a dealer for Dever Springs, I think. I'll go down and see them sometimes this week, plus call Agile as well.

You guys are absolutely fantastic!

James

[MountainBikeRoamer]

Hey right on!
But ---- seriously, be sure to give some time for some other members to weigh in/give their input.

Of truly serious note:
I'm **still** not sure (even after four pages of this thread!) exactly what you mean when you say you want "better handling," and that worries me a LOT. It still really leaves us shooting in the dark somewhat when that broad-statement of desire for "better handling" still hasn't been sharply articulated or quantified/described/defined.

I *do* think you need rear leaf work.
But I'm not at all confident that will get you closer to any specific "better handling" target.
But better riding? For sure.


EDIT:
You might do *quite well* simply buying and installing a new set of E350 rear leaf springs. Not too expensive to go that route, pretty sure a number of other members have had good luck bolting those in (the constantly-heavy-load of a built-out SMB isn't a bad match for the weight rating / arc of some of those springs.)

[Youngster]

Don't forget to talk with Jeremy at WeldTech Designs! He's a wizard with these vans and likes to talk shop.
https://weldtecdesigns.com/product-c...sion-e-series/

They're just a few blocks down the street from Agile 4x4, in El cajon.

There's a synergy that goes on in El cajon with the desert race industry, engineering and fabrication. These companies push each other to innovate and dream up some cool stuff!

[carringb]

I would also agree that your van is due for new/better springs.

Deaver's are nice, but not the only option. I also feel like you can do better than new OEM springs. Those overloads just gotta go. If you want to do it inexpensively, you could remove the overloads, and add new intermediate leafs. That can take some trial and error however.

[TomsBeast]

Originally Posted by carringb

I would also agree that your van is due for new/better springs.

...you could remove the overloads, and add new intermediate leafs. That can take some trial and error however.

Something I left out of my comments above ^^^^ from case #1, the Nissan 2wd pick up.

When I turned it into a 1 ton dually, I took the heavier rear leafs from the donnor truck. Wanting to do this conversion on the relative cheap, (there's nothing cheap about rebuilding a Nissan 1 ton dually rear axle, and converting a 6mo old truck to a dually BTW) I mixed and matched thicker old springs from the 1 ton, with the 6 month old springs that came with truck, making my own spring pack. It sorta worked, and had I did more trial and error, I might have gotten closer.

Instead, me the impatient 29yr old, I took my truck to this old-school Italian guy in Oakland named Dick Gauer, who owned A-1 Spring. He listened to what I wanted, what I had done so far that I wasn't happy with, asked lots of questions, then made and installed a set of rear springs that were perfect, hit a home run first try.

It's amazing how quickly a guy who's been building springs for 30yrs can fix a problem.

[James4]

Good Morning Mike! Looks like we have some additional comments from other members!

No need for any worry whatsoever, Mike, especially since I think you hit on where our miscommunication point might rest in one of you previous comments, "Your rear leaves are indeed tired (or just plain overloaded), as they're definitely sunken/sagged all the way onto the lower overload springs." followed by "Ironically, this can produce some perceived characteristics of better "cornering," as you've got that extra-stuff bottom spring at play, and this is absolutely decreasing the amount of "lean" in a turn." As specific as we have both been in our subject discussion, one's perception seems to be the only reasonable factor, at this point in time, that is causing us to not understand each other. So, it appears to be my perception that I could get better handling when in your view, this is not the case. Add to this, that it is my perception that a good riding vehicle is also a good handling vehicle.

With all of the above said, there appears to be no reasonable conclusion that either of us could draw that should worry either of us. All should be good!

Thank you for the great amount of concern and effort that you give to forum members like me!

James