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Old 06-18-2013, 05:57 PM   #1
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Huge land closure proposed for Sierra Nevada range.

Iím just getting wind of this but noticed it posted on my little trip up over Sherman Pass in the Kennedy Meadows area.

Itís still in the planning stages and might not get far but was cloaked in a bit of secrecy which made me take notice. But it has also added enough fuel to the fire that the Fresno folks are all fired up, the Sherriff was upset enough to be on a talk show about it, and Iíve seen some E-mails about the closure. Itís so big and invasive that it seems like an April Fools joke.

Take a look at this map. The area is bigger than some states.

http://www.defendruralamerica.com/files ... adsMap.pdf


http://www.defendruralamerica.com/DRA/FrogsToads.html

Wonder how far this one will go?
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Old 06-18-2013, 07:42 PM   #2
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Re: Huge land closure proposed for Sierra Nevada range.

Wow, did I read that right. They want to shut down that much of California because of a frog that has got short in numbers.
This has to be stopped.
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:35 PM   #3
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Re: Huge land closure proposed for Sierra Nevada range.

Hard to say what the true agenda is or even how much is hype. In this case one side claims itís all about controlling who gets to use the mountains and affects all usage whether itís recreational, business or private lands and could affect past, current or future dealings. They got me lookin, for sure. These people trying to run this through are using a frog and a toad as the pry bar to roust people out and keep people from coming inÖ like those of us who 4x4, fish, or camp. Itís so radical I canít see how it will go into effect as it is, but that is how these people get things passed into law. They reach out so far in the hopes that even if some of the proposition fails, a portion (either large or small) will still take affect.
At a minimum it is a stab at anything that is not considered eco-wise. So IMO it has a direct relationship to hydro electric/water storage, hunting, and backcountry vehicle travel. Some of the blame on the depletion of these rare amphibians is the stocking of non-native fish other than Golden Trout which is the only native species of trout in California if Iím not mistaken.

Iíve seen what the Salmon fiasco has done. Government regulations have gone too far and although I still believe there needs to be a watchdog agency to help the demise of endangered species, there needs some sort of sanity here. Creating a critical habitat area is not the solution. With the Salmon issue, our company inserted radio trackers in the Salmon fry and found most never made it past the deltaÖthey never even got out of the delta and ended up in the bellies of the Stripped Bass, a non native fish introduced to the water systems in the 1800ís. Yet the blame goes elsewhere and the problem never gets solved yet the environmentalistís true agenda is achieved. Restrictions.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:22 PM   #4
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Re: Huge land closure proposed for Sierra Nevada range.

I was curious enough about the apparent intent to close off such a large area to people that I looked up the applicable Federal register and read the posting. It is a lengthy document. It seems that the introduction of fish for sport, starting in the 19th century, to an area in which there were no native fish species, has done the worst damage to the reptilian population. Ironic that an attempt to make the wilderness up there more attractive to 'sportsmen', including massive fish imports by the Feds themselves, has done such severe damage to native creatures that restricted access for all may be the result.

But ultimately, this is what they are proposing:

(1) Unauthorized collecting, handling, possessing, selling,
delivering, carrying, or transporting of the species, including import
or export across State lines and international boundaries, except for
properly documented antique specimens of these taxa at least 100 years
old, as defined by section 10(h)(1) of the Act;
(2) Introduction of species that compete with or prey upon the
Sierra Nevada yellow-legged frog, the northern DPS of the mountain
yellow-legged frog, or the Yosemite toad;
(3) The unauthorized release of biological control agents that
attack any life stage of these species;
(4) Unauthorized modification of the mountain meadow habitats or
associated upland areas important for the breeding, rearing, and
survival of these species; and
(5) Unauthorized discharge of chemicals or fill material into any
waters in which the Sierra Nevada yellow-legged frog, the northern DPS
of the mountain yellow-legged frog, or the Yosemite toad are known to
occur.

From my reading it doesn't seem very likely that the proposed regs. will threaten access in any way, just limit what you can do once you are up there.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:15 AM   #5
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Re: Huge land closure proposed for Sierra Nevada range.

I agree, backpacking out of Le Conte Canyon over Muir pass about 4 years ago we had found that the Middle Fork of the Kings River had above Little Pete Meadow, had had fish removed above the meadow for the frog. It was a minor inconvenience, but then fishing was not a primary goal. Historically their were no fish above 7000ft in the Sierra Range, they were all introduced by man.

There is some good reading on the Sierra Nevada Mountain yellow legged frog, that I encourage people to seek out:

http://www.mylfrog.info/

specifically has a good section on the perceived threats to yellow legged frog.


http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2008/1144/

Report on Experimental Repatriation of Mountain Yellow-legged Frogs



Report to California Fish and Game

While one can never underestimate what some "environmentalist" may do, or propose. I don't think this is one of them.

-greg
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:48 AM   #6
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Re: Huge land closure proposed for Sierra Nevada range.

The proposed listing doesn't necessarily lead to the closure of anything. Some people get frightened very easily, and this group seems to prey on that. Agenda 21? Seriously? Kookland.

Note that the golden trout was proposed for inclusion in the list of endangered species. After work with sportfishing and other groups, plans were made for habitat restoration and protection, and after the agreements were signed it wasn't listed. Not sure that'll happen with the toads and frogs, since they're rather more unloved, but you never know. As the notice explains, much of their habitat is already under various federal protections (including the Golden Trout Wilderness up there on the Kern Plateau).

There's a lot to argue about when it comes to the Endangered Species Act, and I'm usually in a lather about closures for wilderness designation and other "uses," but there's no need to get as alarmist as this website, which has it's own agendas.
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Old 06-20-2013, 01:31 PM   #7
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Re: Huge land closure proposed for Sierra Nevada range.

It's not Kookland, its companies not wanting to let go of money making industries that have evolved over the years since man has occupied the area For the most part Iím against the heavy hitters such as strip mining and clear cutting by the timber industry, but I also have issues with how the Feds along with the enviro's go about things. Where is the balance? It seems like both sides have hidden agendas. Whether or not there is any direct relationship in the MVUM enactment, Iím sure endangered species areas do play a role in what areas were or what areas will be closed off in the future. Like I said I'm all for some sort of watchdog agency but since these types of programs have existed (1973 I believe), Iím told their success rate has been only about 2%. It doesnít seem to be very effective especially in the cost to run these programs. I sure hope this proposal doesn't add fuel to the fire.

Iím gonna stay neutral until I hear more. When I see a proposal that actually works with some compromise for both sides of the issue, it will make me feel a little better. If you think about it, if it wasnít for the logging industry, most of the trails in the forest wouldnít exist and if these types of policies were in effect years ago, there wouldnít be hardly any trails for us to take today. I want to see the forest opened up further with more access to our lands, with more places to disperse camp, fish, hunt, and explore via off road trails. In all the years of travel in the Sierraís (in my area), I have seen many trails blocked off or closed. On the other hand, I can only recall a handful of off road trails opened, mainly OHV routes that were once forest roads to begin with. JMO.
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Old 06-29-2013, 04:08 PM   #8
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Re: Huge land closure proposed for Sierra Nevada range.

Sorry, I meant Kookland only in reference to some other stuff I saw on the website. I generally agree about the issues of land use as you've described them. I get frustrated sometimes because reason too often flies out the window, and you're stuck in an argument between fanatic true believers who would never agree on anything.

It's such a bummer. It seems to be all about other agendas, as you note, and rarely about the actual use of that patch of land. And it leads to counterintuitive results. I used to dirtbike up near Fouts Springs, and because of resistance to logging efforts there in and around Snow Mtn they never did get that forest thinned (and it had overgrown due to misguided fire suppression) and then, predictably, it caught fire and destroyed all kinds of habitat. Everyone lost.

Let's hope reason prevails...but I'm not holding my breath.
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Old 06-30-2013, 01:06 PM   #9
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Re: Huge land closure proposed for Sierra Nevada range.

I don't know anything about this particular issue, but would like to share a slightly different perspective on environmental protection/land use regulations.

I just think about the future, like my (future) grandkids and even their children. What kind of environment will they experience? If we make decisions now to regulate/close/restrict, it will affect both us and future generations. The regulations can be undone or changed in the future if that is the sentiment then.

However, if we go ahead and do more development now, like roads, more access, more activities, it will be almost impossible to reverse that in the future.

So even though I enjoy recreating on public lands, I don't argue or vote too hard against environmental protections. Yes, it may be excessive now, it may restrict MY access/enjoyment now, but I would rather err on the side of letting my great-grandchildren enjoy the outdoors.

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Old 06-30-2013, 01:26 PM   #10
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Re: Huge land closure proposed for Sierra Nevada range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhally
The regulations can be undone or changed in the future if that is the sentiment then.
Right... lol
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