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Old 10-18-2017, 10:22 PM   #141
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Ok, been a while, I have moved on from that but here is how it worked. The fuse on the ground side of trombetta would be a 10 amp fuse. For a new install this is not needed as long as the positive wires have a fuse. This fuse was a left over of what was part of the Surepower Setup.. So the additional relay is to enable you to enable the trombetta manually. 87a is the normally connected pin of the relay, it is connected to the run circuit on the van (key is in run) This line should have a 10 amp fuse. 85 & 87 are tied to a 12 volt source again with a 10 amp fuse. When parked if you wanted enable the trombetta , you switch the ground side of the relay coil closing which makes 87 become the input to the trombetta relay. So yes 85 & 87 have to be tied together. If you don't want the manual connect, just wire the run circuit to the trombetta.

I hope that make a little more sense, if not feel free to pm.

I ran this for a couple of years on my V-10, I would not recommend this for a 6.0 diesel or if you plan on running heavy loads on House side while driving.

-greg
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Old 10-19-2017, 03:38 PM   #142
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Thanks, Greg, I appreciate your help!
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:08 PM   #143
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After 10 years of prototype testing....

First, the information in this forum is great. Nice to have a place to find latest technology and the diagrams are publishable. Nice.

After 10 years of testing…..

In 2008, I posted a charging architecture that would solve many problems that I had with my 2000 E350 PSD Sportsmobile. We bought it new. Without going to details, the house battery would not get fully charged with short trips and hot days in the desert when the frig was at a high duty cycle. This killed my expensive AGM house battery. I tried a lot of band aid solutions but finally realized I had nearly everything I needed in the van already… except for an inverter.

Very briefly, the architecture consists of using the alternator that charges the van battery normally, but the alternator also supplies POWER back to my shore power three stage charger for the house battery. The missing link is an inexpensive inverter (12 volts DC to 120 volts AC) that can drive the three-stage charger. Now the house battery is being taken care of with a good charger and not an alternator that is regulating based on the nearby starter/van battery. To make things completely automatic, a delay circuit is used to turn on the inverter after the motor starts and a transfer relay is used to automatically connect between the inverter (no shore power) and shore power.
After about 10 years of usage, I can report that it is working GREAT and I would not go back to any of the technology available today. After a weekend of camping, I can start the motor and measure 30+ amps of current going into the house battery. There is also complete isolation between the batteries.
For details and diagram, use Search: House Battery Charging System
I have updated the van with solar and an MPPT charger. Belt and suspenders.
Mike Wilson
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Old 08-23-2018, 03:12 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Wilson View Post
First, the information in this forum is great. Nice to have a place to find latest technology and the diagrams are publishable. Nice.

After 10 years of testing…..

In 2008, I posted a charging architecture that would solve many problems that I had with my 2000 E350 PSD Sportsmobile. We bought it new. Without going to details, the house battery would not get fully charged with short trips and hot days in the desert when the frig was at a high duty cycle. This killed my expensive AGM house battery. I tried a lot of band aid solutions but finally realized I had nearly everything I needed in the van already… except for an inverter.

Very briefly, the architecture consists of using the alternator that charges the van battery normally, but the alternator also supplies POWER back to my shore power three stage charger for the house battery. The missing link is an inexpensive inverter (12 volts DC to 120 volts AC) that can drive the three-stage charger. Now the house battery is being taken care of with a good charger and not an alternator that is regulating based on the nearby starter/van battery. To make things completely automatic, a delay circuit is used to turn on the inverter after the motor starts and a transfer relay is used to automatically connect between the inverter (no shore power) and shore power.
After about 10 years of usage, I can report that it is working GREAT and I would not go back to any of the technology available today. After a weekend of camping, I can start the motor and measure 30+ amps of current going into the house battery. There is also complete isolation between the batteries.
For details and diagram, use Search: House Battery Charging System
I have updated the van with solar and an MPPT charger. Belt and suspenders.
Mike Wilson
On the surface, this sounds inefficient as all get out... make 12v with the Ford alternator, convert to 120v with a DC-AC inverter, then make 12v again with a smart battery charger.

Until you think about it for a minute or two, then you realize it's brilliant!

-You get to ditch the underhood isolator, it's inherent voltage drop.
-Isolate the house batteries so they are completely on their own charging pattern and circuit, for longer life and more complete charging
-The delay circuit is perfect for the high current at start up demand of Diesels

I'm not seeing a downside, here

Tell me more about this inexpensive inverter and 3 step charger
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Old 08-23-2018, 06:29 PM   #145
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After 10 years of prototype testing....

Third Time!!!
I keep hitting post and the world goes blank. I will try this one last time then it is back to paper mail.
The inverter was the cheapest I could find at the time that I thought would suit my needs. This was a prototype charger so if it had issues I had not considered, I did not want to spend too much to see it was no good. So the inverter was from Harbor Freight and was under 100 dollars for a unit that provided about 1000 watts. Why 1000 watts? Quick Calc. Say we are charging at 30 amps and at 14 volts. That would require a delivered power of 420 watts. That comes from the battery charger. If the battery charger is 80 percent efficient, then it requires 525 watts as an input. That input comes from the inverter. So 1000 watts gives about a 2X margin so we are not pushing anything very hard. There is a Harbor Freight inverter now for $84.99 and is 1000 watts. Sine wave output is not required. Modified Sine works fine.
Next pricey part is the transfer relay. It was about 30.00 bucks. Might find one cheaper somewhere but this was what I recall paying. Other odds and ends are Outdoor extension cord for 120 volt transfer from engine compartment mounted inverter to the battery charger box. Not much else important. So it was not for free but was not crazy expensive either. Best part was that it worked.
The system does require some electrical work that is not plug and play but not rocket science. The delay circuit was sort of based on the inverter operation and how the on/off switch worked. Mechanical stuff was the hardest. Finding a good home for the inverter, making it easy to swap it out if it goes bad or convert back to the old system.
It can be simplified if one wanted to live with the less automatic operation. Like adding a switch or two.
Efficiency? Ok, I agree but the old system did not work either. So I will live with the extra watts lost but the Alternator has lots available….. if we can only deliver it to our house battery. That is what this scheme was designed to do.
Question for the Group. How many have measured the current being delivered to the house battery after it has been discharged for a day or two. I get about 30 amps at idle. I can’t recall if that is the battery charger limit or something else. That will take a 240 A-Hr battery from half empty to full charge in about 4 + hours driving.
Hope that helps.

Mike
Now hit Submit Reply and Poof!
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Old 08-26-2018, 03:39 PM   #146
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I found the thread from 2008, but no diagrams?

Phil
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Old 08-26-2018, 03:51 PM   #147
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After 10 years of prototype testing....

My mistake.
You are right... thought they were there. I have two diagrams, and will post them both.

Mike
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Old 08-26-2018, 04:32 PM   #148
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After 10 years of prototype testing....

Overall block diagram . There are some "details" that need to be sorted out depending on the Inverter that is used and how it is turned on or off.

I have shown one option of having manual control to turn the inverter on after you have started the motor. this is the relay and switch labeled On/Off in the lower left side of the diagram.

The oval around the three wires with colors black, white and green is the extension cord that goes from the Inverter to the transfer relay and on to the battery charger. The safety ground wire (green) is used to bring the house battery charging voltage back up to the starter/van battery to keep it charged when the van sits and has shore power.

Hope that helps.
Now, lets see if it shows up.

Mike
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Old 08-26-2018, 04:46 PM   #149
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Try again...

OK, had to change it from .doc to pdf. Try it again.

Mike
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Van Charger Details.pdf (11.9 KB, 14 views)
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Old 08-26-2018, 09:37 PM   #150
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Thanks, man - looks like a great solution>
What does your alternator put out?

Phil
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