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Old 09-26-2016, 12:07 PM   #31
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Hey Guys,

So, I have a progressive dynamics "intellipower 9100" series of charger/converter that I just purchased the charge wizard pendant for. This turns the charger into a true, 3-stage, (actually four, as it also adds a desulfation phase) "smart" battery charger.

I'd like to get your thoughts on the following:

I'm theorizing that I've killed my two 27 house batteries (not quite 1 year old) by not using this setup and almost never plugging in to shore power. Since my van is my daily, I assumed I was getting plenty of charge, since the Trimetric would show 100% nearly all of the time. Thanks to all the help and advice from the forum members, I now realize that it wasn't getting a full charge that way. So, with two 90ah batteries in parallel, it seems as though I should be able to safely discharge them down to 50%, essentially getting 90ah out of the system, no? If that's the case, my refrigerator (which pulls 3.6 - 4.0 amps) should be able to run for about 22.5 hours full time. Since it runs about half that, I would assume that I could get almost two days of run time. As it is now, with the battery fully charged via solar before the sun goes down around 7:15pm (resting at 13.1 with no load), I am at 12.2 volts by 9am the following morning. The fridge definitely runs less at night, plus I'm using LED lights, so I'm guessing the draw is only slightly more than the normal 4.0-ish amps for a few hours while my wife and I play Yahtzee and have some more drinks. Then, after we go to bed the fridge is the only thing pulling power, and likely less than 50% of the time. Based on this info, I'm guessing my batteries are toast - what do you guys think?

So, this brings up an important question, and it's one that I can't seem to find a definitive answer to, despite searching the forums. Can my current 9100 series of charger work with AGM batteries? It bulk charges at 14.4, absorption is set at 13.6, and it floats at 13.2. After being plugged it for 21 hours with no load, it goes into a 14.4v, 15minute charge cycle to help desulfate the plates. There's no way to set it for different cell types, so I assumed that it would have to be replaced. However, if I can use it with agm, I'd like to convert to the ones referenced by BoyWonder, since those are a smokin' deal and I can get a couple more years before I switch to Lithium. Maybe in two years' time, the prices on Lithium will have come down a little more.

Thanks again for the help,

capn

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Old 09-26-2016, 03:43 PM   #32
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Each battery manufacture sets the charge voltage rate depending on the battery design and the state it's in. AGM batteries are considered wet cell type so most multi-stage chargers usually work OK with them just like they would with a typical wet cell battery. I'd be more concerned about if the charger is indeed considered one that's really smart or not. Many so called smart chargers are not much different than a regular car charger you see in the auto parts section of walmart. I have heard some of the new converters have smart charging but I've never needed to actually research them to see if they stand the true test. In your case I think the charge wizard you have should cover it OK. Most high end inverters on the other hand have been offering multi stage charging for years. Maybe Greg or other members have looked into it how well the wizard operates on the 9100. I went with an inverter on my build.

So you keep the fridge on, and at night you don't keep the van plugged in? And you've been doing this on a daily basis?

My home parking procedure is if the fridge is running, I plug into shore power so the fridge kicks over to AC power and does not over cycle the batteries. My inverter does act as a low amp 12.8vDC power supply to help offset some of the micro drawing equipment on board. I just do not activate the charger unless needed. Solar does a good job keeping the batteries at float during the day and then at night the power supply mode keeps the batteries at 100% (12.8) until the morning sun hits the panels. The only time I cycle the house batteries are those times away form shore power; in other words when I take the van camping. If you are living out of the van, daily cycling is just part of the normal usage and the main goal is to never drop below about 12.2 volts.
I'm also starting to look into how well my solar does at smart charging. I get a good rate on most days but wonder if constant solar charging while the van sits daily is having an impact on the life of the batteries.
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Old 09-26-2016, 07:13 PM   #33
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Hi Dave,

Thanks for the info. I suppose I could give agm a try then, especially at the prices that the place down here in San Diego offers them for. They're selling them for cheaper than I can get a quality flooded from them. The only issue is that I don't know if they come in standard sizes (type 27/31?).

I only keep my fridge on while dry camping. We just moved into a house that allows me the ability to plug in every night (driveway). So, I started doing that a week or so ago. Before that, I relied only on alternator charging. If we're preparing for a camping weekend, I usually turn the fridge on while still plugged in to let it cool down without killing the batts. From now on, I plan on using the shore power along with the charger/converter to keep whatever batteries I buy up to snuff.

As far as your situation is concerned...I was under the impression that a quality solar charger is good at keeping a battery in proper working condition, long term. I previously thought that a mppt controller was the only way to do that well, but it seems that even the pwm ones can work at that job as long as they're matched up with the battery bank properly. Maybe Greg can chime in here and offer his knowledge on the subject.

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Old 09-28-2016, 06:55 AM   #34
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capn,

I don't think the charge wizard make's the "intellipower 9100" into a smart enough charger, I don't really understand their absorption set-point at 13.6 volts, it doesn't come close to the recommended voltages for absorption. I am also a big believer in temperature compensation unless you only charge at 77°. So if you are looking at getting new batteries I would look at a new charger.

Moving to AGM, instead of Lithium does sound like a sound alternative, until you are confident that you have a good handle on charging and battery maintenance, which of course will be different with Lithium. I say that because Lithium has a lot of pluses, but if you do anything that takes away from the "expected lifespan" the cost issue becomes harder to take (IMHO).

I was looking at stand alone chargers and came across KISAE (Keep It Simple Alternative Energy). I give them kudo's for the name at least, they have a very reasonable priced KISAE AC1260 Abso 60A, 12V Battery Charger, that has some pretty good features, depending on the size of you battery bank, you may be able to save some money and move down in current output. The say that it also has a lithium setting, although it has been a while since I looked into Lithium, so I am not sure how good their set points are. While they have a programming option, it is for using it as a supply, not in changing mode.

They have a optional temperature sensor and compensation. They also add in the ability to charge multiple banks, something that some may find a positive also. I don't have this or use any KISAE equipment, but if I was just looking for a charger I might try this.

As far as solar used for finishing your charge cycle, as long as you have a charger that supports absorption, that is always a possible option. It would not matter if it was MPPT or PWM, that would be a different feature entirely. I would say that my that would depend a lot on where, and can you depend on it, it is always best to get your batteries to a full charge as soon as possible. I love solar, but in the PNW, I could not count on that as a good option.

Along the lines of solar, I found another item from KISAE that caught my interest. The KISAE DMT1230 Abso 30A DC-DC Battery Charger, actually is a solar controller and a DC to DC charger, meaning it would take power from the alternator and turn it into a 3 stage smart battery charger. Again it has similar settings and more importantly more program-ability to the voltage set-points. They reference a 50 amp unit, but I have not seen it for sale in any searches. If I was looking for a solar controller, I might take a chance on integrating this product.

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Old 09-28-2016, 08:35 AM   #35
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FWIW, I'm using an intellipower 9XXX series charger/converter (60A model) with the charge wizard on my AGM batteries .....so far so good, although I usually only plug it in for an hour or two when the van is parked in the driveway and I'm working out there.

The Intellipower came out of the neighbor's RV (we replaced it with a tripplite inverter/charger), probably a mid-2000's unit based on the age of the RV. I bought the charge wizard for it when we did the swap. That totally winds me up, BTW....the need to buy a box so it won't cook batteries.

The Lucent-Alcatel blem batteries from 619battery.com are not a std automotive group size. They are 175ah and slightly smaller than a 4D. both terminals are located on one end.
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Old 09-28-2016, 09:12 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Scalf77 View Post

Along the lines of solar, I found another item from KISAE that caught my interest. The KISAE DMT1230 Abso 30A DC-DC Battery Charger, actually is a solar controller and a DC to DC charger, meaning it would take power from the alternator and turn it into a 3 stage smart battery charger. Again it has similar settings and more importantly more program-ability to the voltage set-points. They reference a 50 amp unit, but I have not seen it for sale in any searches. If I was looking for a solar controller, I might take a chance on integrating this product.

-greg
Wow. Just went through the specs on that thing.

I guess you would still use an isolator or charging relay with it?? Maybe not?? You may lose your ability to combine batteries automatically.

I am guessing that instead of your house loads going through the charger they just connect straight to the battery. Either way, this thing is a pretty nice price for an MPPT controller that can get smart with your alternator too.
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Old 09-28-2016, 10:38 AM   #37
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Wow. Just went through the specs on that thing.

I guess you would still use an isolator or charging relay with it?? Maybe not?? You may lose your ability to combine batteries automatically.

I am guessing that instead of your house loads going through the charger they just connect straight to the battery. Either way, this thing is a pretty nice price for an MPPT controller that can get smart with your alternator too.
It should replace a isolator or charging relay, it would be triggered by the ignition start. Although depending on your running load, 30 amps would be limiting.

Not sure what you mean by house loads going through the charger, this would be like wiring in a solar controller.

It does look like it has potential and it is nice to see some multi-purpose equipment being designed.

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Old 09-28-2016, 10:46 AM   #38
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Most Solar controllers I have looked at have an input for solar, battery, and load.

This one has inputs for solar, battery, and alternator.

So I am guessing the loads go straight off the battery. Nothing really shown in their wiring diagram but that seems to make sense.
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Old 09-28-2016, 11:12 AM   #39
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Got it, this unit does not have a load provision. Actually it is not really all that common, but relatively new. I know the KID has it, as does the newer Morningstar Prostar controller, it may be proliferating to other controllers, I really have not been looking that much.

I don't have a controller with load control but my understanding was that it was for a specific load that you wanted to be able to take advantage of the Solar Power that is going to waste once you're battery has been charged or at a predetermined level. I don't believe it is designed to run all your loads through. I could be wrong on how that is supposed to work.

In any event still a good question. Maybe someone that actually is using load control will chime in, I believe boywonder has a pretty good idea how the KID was implemented.

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Old 09-28-2016, 11:27 AM   #40
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I'm new to all of this and that's why I try and pay attention to differences and may seem to ask oddball questions that may be obvious.

30 Amps seems good for a charger, but not so much if it is limiting loads that could be handled by the alternator. I know some folks would run certain loads like a microwave with the engine running to prevent strain on the battery. Might be worth an email to their tech support to see exactly how that all works out. I do like the premise of the unit a lot, taking good care of the battery through solar and alternator. And for 220 bucks.....yep! That alone is a decent price for a 30 Amp MPPT.
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