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Old 02-03-2011, 07:50 PM   #11
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Re: Jumping Starting Batteries With House Batteries

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Originally Posted by scatter
The other problem I was having was that even when the solenoid kicked in, I still wasn't getting any help from my house battery. I pulled the Sure Power out from under the seat and removed the solenoid from it. There are four rivets around the bottom of the solenoid that hold it together and I drilled them out. When you open it up, you'll need to unsolder the two wires from the windings so you can remove everything to get to the main terminals at the top. On mine, there was a hard, shiny green layer covering the terminals on the inside. I got out a dremel and cleaned everything up and used four #10 machine bolts to put the solenoid back together. Now I'm getting power from the house battery. I don't know what that green stuff was, but it was all over the inside of the top of the solenoid where the two large terminals come through the plastic housing.
Anyway, I suggest all of you pull the wires off one side of the top of the solenoid and check the continuity across the two terminals when it's activated. Mine was almost totally open and that's why my two batteries weren't helping out each other. This also keeps the alternator from charging the house battery and my solar from charging the starting batteries. Same when you plug into shore power. I've had similar problems on other solenoids. Just cause it clicks doesn't mean there's a connection.
So this was most likely oxidation and pitting that is created when you haven't met the whetting current that would normally clean the contacts. It is unfortunately more common on high current relays, especially when the switching current is not high. It is probably a caused when charging the house batteries (either AC charger or Solar( and then having the separator engage) to top off the Van battery (s). If you wanted to just purchase the relay, and not the whole SurePower Separtor you can go to MurCal http://www.murcal.com/Catalog/Bear-DC-Contactor-Family They are made by Trombetta http://www.trombetta.com. Make sure you order the 114-1211-020 and not the 114-1211-010. The -020 is made with silver alloy contacts, which is helps prevent the above problem. It is only $32.00, almost cheap enough to buy one as a spare. If you wanted to go with a different vendor you can try Cole Hersee 24812-01 at http://www.elecdirect.com/product/2a...762b8f919.aspx. Of course it is $82.00 dollars so not sure that it would be worth it. Again you need to get the -01 model not the straight 24812. The -01 has the silver alloy contacts vs the copper in the straight 24812. I was able to win one on Ebay for $22.00 shipped. I can't really see any difference to explain the price.

The Cole Hersee Is on the left Tombetta on the right.

I suspect if you have solar or plug in to keep everything topped off, you will run into this issue sometime. It may not even take that.

Dave,
I hope I am wrong, but the Blue Sea ACR would be susceptible to the same issue. They of course are also silver alloy, they might be sealed better, which would help a little. This problem is probably more of a usage issue than a product issue.

-greg

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Old 02-03-2011, 10:36 PM   #12
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Re: Jumping Starting Batteries With House Batteries

Time will tell. I know it's a problem I've seen in irrigation pump relays as well. Badger also showed a fix to the problem but it's more of a maintenance issue rather than a fix.
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Old 03-01-2011, 03:22 PM   #13
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Re: Jumping Starting Batteries With House Batteries

Up above a few posts, I explained how I added a push button switch to connect house and starting batteries for extra power to heat up the glow pins on a diesel. Well, I was doing some other work on the van and cleaning up some wiring under the dash and realized my posting meathod didn't work as intended. As I wired it, when you pushed the switch when the key was in the run/ignition position (which it needs to be to send power to the glow pins) the engine would start to crank. That obviously wasn't the intended result.
So, to correct the problem and clean up some stuff, I moved the SMB 15amp fuse that's below the steering column and used to protect the wiring to the solenoid, to the left kick panel behind the parking brake pedal. I also pulled the green wire that SMB ran up to that fuse and the crimp-on connector that was spliced into the white wire going to the ignition switch. I then put the fuse onto the same green wire where it comes up behind the parking brake and the other side of the fuse to the push button switch. The other terminal of the switch still goes to +12 volts. Now, it really does work as I ran various tests which I neglected to do last time.

Anytime you push the switch, it will activate the solenoid and connect the two battery banks together. The negative part is that the way I wired it, when you crank the engine without pushing the switch, the house battery is not helping the starting batteries. To me, that's the way I want it. It gives me the choice depending on my or the batteries needs.

Just thot I'd clear up my first post in case anyone wants to do the same thing.
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Old 03-01-2011, 11:02 PM   #14
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Re: Jumping Starting Batteries With House Batteries

Hum...the way mine was (finally) connected by SMB made it closed the surepower whenever the separator was not joined whether or not the ignition was on. The operating tab was simply connected to the house system, not the starting system. Scatter, how will it close and jump to start if the starting batteries are dead? Maybe I missed something here. I've had a rough day.
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:06 AM   #15
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Re: Jumping Starting Batteries With House Batteries

Not too sure what you're saying/asking daveb, but in a nutshell, my mod does the same thing as wired by SMB, just allows me the choice of connecting the systems or not.

Stock was solenoid activates when key is in the crank position only.
My setup, solenoid activates only when the pushbutton switch is pressed.

This takes the place of using a jumper wire across the main terminals or activating the solenoid with a little jumper. I can now do it from the drivers seat. Now if you have corrosion in the solenoid like I mentioned in a previous post, the only thing that will work is jumping across the main terminals of the solenoid.

I haven't tested it with either bank of batteries dead, and hope I don't have to. It's just nice to have the extra poop from the house batteries kicking in during cold weather while heating up the glow pins even if the starting batteries are OK. If the starting batteries are dead, it's a necessity, and from the way I read the Blue Sea (I changed out the Sure Power) manual the Blue Sea (and I'm sure the Sure Power) will kick in even with the starting batteries dead. I guess I should disconnect the starting batteries and see if it will work.
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Old 03-03-2011, 09:27 AM   #16
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Re: Jumping Starting Batteries With House Batteries

I'm no electrical guru, but last week my starting batteries died, and I used the little jumper cable that I made to connect the house batteries with the starting batteries. I had to remove the rear seat to get good access to the Suerpower isolator but with the help of the house battery she started right up.
If I read Scatter's post above correctly, it would seem that at least stock from SMB West, both batteries (house & start batteries) are connected together at start, but I don't think that is the way mine was wired as the only way I got it started was by jumping the Surepower.
When I was removing the 4 year old Motorcrafts, one fell out of battery tray and smashed the heck out of my hand - got it X-rayed and nothing broken but sure is sore! Both batteries were dead, but the rear one was so corroded that it took forever for me to brake off the negative clamp from the treminal. I replaced with two Odyssey Grp 65 1750's - I would do about anything not to have to do that job again!
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Old 03-03-2011, 12:07 PM   #17
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Re: Jumping Starting Batteries With House Batteries

Wow, sorry about your hand stikine. As you said, at least it's not broken. Dropping those batteries is a real pain - no pun intended.
I'm not sure why your two battery banks don't connect when cranking your engine. Looks like you have an '07 with the 6.0 which is exactly what I have. Maybe with the starting batteries at less then 3 volts (I believe that is needed to close the solenoid) it won't work. I was hoping that the solenoid will activate with either bank having juice. You might look right under your steering column and see if there is a 15 amp fuse added by SMB. Mine is in a red holder spliced into the wire. From there SMB added a green wire running down to behind the emergency brake pedal and then back to the Sure Power. If all that's not there, our rigs were built different. I guess I'm going to have to do more testing to see if my solenoid will activate with either of the banks removed to simulate dead batteries. It would be good to know.
Hope the hand gets better soon.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:05 PM   #18
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Re: Jumping Starting Batteries With House Batteries

Scatter, let us know what you find. Looking at my own wiring schematic, I'm assuming the Blue Sea Automatic Charging Relay (ACR) (aka, seperator) is powered by the house batteries. Not having disconnected my van starting battery, I would not know this for sure. Could always call Blue Sea up and ask...
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:34 PM   #19
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Re: Jumping Starting Batteries With House Batteries

At one time SMB used power off the Ignition circuit to activate the separator. Later they wired my old surepower activation tab to the house battery with a push button switch. If the starting batteries were out or completely dead, the separator would still engage by a push of the button. But if my house battery was dead the only way it would engage is if the separator saw a charge form either side. That's why you should wire the start assist tab to the house system...you want to jump the dead starting batteries, not the house system. My Blue Sea is wired similar.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:41 PM   #20
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Re: Jumping Starting Batteries With House Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by joey2cool
Scatter, let us know what you find. Looking at my own wiring schematic, I'm assuming the Blue Sea Automatic Charging Relay (ACR) (aka, seperator) is powered by the house batteries. Not having disconnected my van starting battery, I would know this for sure. Could always call Blue Sea up and ask...
Joey, that's how mine is supposed to be wired but because the Blue Sea has a manual control it really doesn't matter. But I don't have the momentary push button at the dash so I can't comment on that.
One thing I did do was to wire up the circuit that prevents the separator from being in the closed position while the engine is turning over. That keeps voltage variations from affecting anything plus I'll know if I have a problem with the starting battery system.
Dave
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