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Old 08-28-2013, 10:06 AM   #11
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Re: No Propane Water Heater in RB?

I'm sure SMB can fit it in somewhere properly, But, as another RB-50 owner, I went without propane completely. You can use a flat plate and in-line pump (even without the Espar) for hot H2O for a couple of hours after stopping. Won't be hot in the morning, though. OK with me. I'm camping, not at home.

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Old 08-28-2013, 12:27 PM   #12
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Re: No Propane Water Heater in RB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lndshark
I can see where you and Don are coming from. In my past camping days, this is exactly what we'd do. But with the very good possibility that we'd be camping en route to Saskatchewan, via BC, Alberta, etc., and in the winter, having hot water (for a shower, let's say) with one less step just seems more RV-like to us. I just think that the move up to a SMB would add that level of convenience I suppose. Just my $0.02.
Good points and what started us down the water heater route. Plus, we came out of a Lance with shower and got soft. :-) For us, the reality is with only 16 gallons of water (vs. 35 in the Lance) we have to be much more frugal. Since our heater is several feet from the sink, we consume an unacceptable amount of water waiting for the hot water to get to the faucet. Since we primarily boondock, outside showers with the Nemo unit are not a problem and fun. (We use the SMB shower basin in campgrounds.) In winter conditions or even in summer, we can do with sponge baths until we get to town and buy a real shower while washing clothes.

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Old 08-28-2013, 01:28 PM   #13
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Re: No Propane Water Heater in RB?

We've had RV's with and without hot water heaters. I have several issues with them, although I do like the luxury of having one.

Winterizing is the worst problem. On our old Class C, we had to drain the HWH in the winter when not camping, and keep it hot all the time while camping. Not sure if it would stay lit when driving. One more step to getting ready to go and when coming home. Most of our winter trips are weekend or even one day skiing, so we just left the HWH drained all winter.

In the summer, fresh water and grey water was the issue. We had a 50 gallon fresh water tank and about 30 gallons of grey water (do you see a problem here?) One time all 4 of us took showers on a boondocking trip and we ended up draining the fresh water tank on a multi-day trip. It is prohibited to dump greywater on the ground in any kind of campground. I don't think we drank 20 gallons? And I will confirm the opinion stated above that having running water, especially running hot water, increases water usage exponentially. It is just human nature.

If we were hooked up, then no problem with fresh water and grey water. But. If there are hookups there are usually hot showers provided, which work far better than even the shower in our Class C did.

After using our Class C for several trips, I started realizing that probably 25% of the space and more than 25% of the weight was dedicated to ... PLUMBING!!! And I was spending far too much of my vacation time wearing rubber gloves (any is too much...).

:\rant off

The furnace in the RB50 takes up almost half the underseat storage width. If the HWH takes up space on the opposite side, I would be concerned that the underseat storage would be reduced to unusable dimensions.
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Old 08-28-2013, 02:02 PM   #14
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Re: No Propane Water Heater in RB?

Well, what I'm really faced with is a comfort and security issue. My wife is super adventurous...she's willing to check out any road without even knowing where it goes. She's up for all kind of travel, given there are some comforts when we get there. She's a shower-every-day-type, so having a convenient hot water supply is a must. Now, I'm not laying the blame on her...I too long for a shower after a full day of wheeling. To her credit, she's the reason I sold the R1100RT and got an R1200GS...she was the one wanting to know where all of the dirt roads led to from the paved roads!

As far as under-seat storage goes, I'm not too worried about that. In fact, I hadn't even considered using that space. Behind the rear seat/under the bed, yes, but not directly under the lower seat cushion.

Haven't some of you installed some sort of by-pass system to circulate the hot water so it isn't wasted just going through the loop? I'm talking LPG water heater here - we'll be getting a gas (V-10) van so the diesel options are out.

Winterization: hmm...hadn't thought about that. We'll be living in the Puget Sound area so I suppose we'd need to winterize unless I was lucky enough to garage the van. Even then, we plan to camp in the winter...I wonder how the water heater and plumbing will handle a trip to the Canadian Prairies in winter...

I too lived the life of a Class A camper. Too big. Too slow. Too limited flexibility to explore unless a tow car was along for the ride too (made for an even slower trip). While spoiled by the comforts of that rig, we still took short showers and conserved fresh/grey water usage. That motorhome turned me off of RV's for a long time...late 70's Winnebagos had AWFUL fit and finish and the workmanship was shoddy with a capital "S."

Well, I'll contact SMB and ask about an LPG water heater. The 110V one is an option but it is costly and I can see it sucking up all of the battery power, solar-boosted or not.
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Old 08-28-2013, 02:19 PM   #15
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Re: No Propane Water Heater in RB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lndshark
Haven't some of you installed some sort of by-pass system to circulate the hot water so it isn't wasted just going through the loop? I'm talking LPG water heater here - we'll be getting a gas (V-10) van so the diesel options are out.
Might have missed my post but Espar makes a gasoline version also. They are very compact and in my opinion are the perfect one fuel solution for our vans.

http://www.espar.com/products/fuel-oper ... nic-5.html
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Old 08-28-2013, 06:20 PM   #16
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Re: No Propane Water Heater in RB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tapatio
Quote:
Originally Posted by lndshark
Haven't some of you installed some sort of by-pass system to circulate the hot water so it isn't wasted just going through the loop? I'm talking LPG water heater here - we'll be getting a gas (V-10) van so the diesel options are out.
Might have missed my post but Espar makes a gasoline version also. They are very compact and in my opinion are the perfect one fuel solution for our vans.

http://www.espar.com/products/fuel-oper ... nic-5.html
I believe I did miss it, Sir!

Please school me on these. It looks as though I'll need the Espar gasoline model and some sort of heat exchanger plumbed in...with a tank as well? Sorry...I can't find a lot of information on how I'd do this DIY.

FWIW (not related, BTW), I am a BMWST.com alumni from years ago (different user name though)

Back on topic, does the group here think this is a viable solution? More compact? More efficient than LPG?
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:42 PM   #17
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Re: No Propane Water Heater in RB?

I have a diesel version and think it's great. They use a flat plate heat exchanger.
Pros:
>>Compact.
>>Fuel efficient.
>>Battery/power efficient.
>>Quick hot water.
>>No tank, it taps right off the water tank.
>>Normally you have the opportunity to add a circulation pump that lets you use the flat plate W/O having to run the Espar provided the engine is warm. (The pump pulls about 4+amps though)
>>Doubles as a block heater.
>>7 day timer can be set to start it automatically (one start)

Cons:
<<Expensive.
<<Noisy. (don't know how noisy a propane water heater is)
<<Flat plate is prone to freezing. If antifreeze gets into the water system it can be dangerous.
<<SMB will not install the flat plate or heater inside and frame mounting is an issue in winter.
<<Temperamental. At least the diesel version can have maintenance issues. Mine filled with dust and dirt and had to be sent back to a repair shop.
<<Unit cuts off at 1/4 tank of fuel. SMB might let you adjust this on a new build.
<<Needs a tempering valve. The water is very hot. A non issue IMO. T-valves are cheap enough.

I probably missed something. To tell the truth the shower thing is pure luxury and a sponge bath does OK. Waterless hair shampoo and pre moistened bath towels work well and those can be heated in the microwave during winter. But nothing beats a shower. Winter is the problem. Lines freeze at temps below 20. I generally run the water heater just before bed and have it kick on just before dusk to keep things from freezing.
I had SMB install the water/shower head tap on the side of my van. I can set up an enclosure and there is very little water waste. Quick wet down, turn off then rinse allows me to take 7 or 8 showers and have plenty of water left over. (18 gal tank) I use very little water washing dishes.

How often do I use it? Not much but after a hike and/or hot weather I want it. Just washing your hair after several days make you feel totally different. YMMV

[edit] Like others posted, just the flat plate alone is much less money and how hard is it to just warm up the engine? Instead of instant hot water, it just takes a few minutes to heat it up. If I didn't need or want ultimate luxury, I'd skip the Espar and go flat plate only and have somebody mount it inside something to protect it from cold weather if possible. If you have the cash go for the Espar.
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Old 08-29-2013, 05:32 AM   #18
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Re: No Propane Water Heater in RB?

Sorry if I'm not grasping the concept Dave. So I wouldn't need any type of storage tank? The Espar is similar to an on-demand, tankless water heater? I turn on the Espar, wait a bit, turn the hot water faucet on and BAM! Hot water?

FWIW, I have no need or want to heat the engine coolant. And I don't want to have to run the engine to get hot water, but this sounds like separate component. Just a flat-plate system WITHOUT the Espar uses engine heat to make hot water. Correct? I don't mind running the heater only when I want hot water.
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Old 08-29-2013, 08:05 AM   #19
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Re: No Propane Water Heater in RB?

Any particular reason you don't want to run the engine for hot water? IMO a flat plate heat exchanger is by far the simplest, won't take up any room inside, and will always work even if you haven't used hot water for a long time. Propane and gas heaters are both very susceptible to problems from infrequent use.

The V10 idles so smooth and quiet, once you get out of the driver's seat you can't even tell really. It's quieter than any generator, and by using it for hot water it will also give some charge to your batteries. With remote start you could even pre-heat the van for a morning shower.

I think in a van, a propane tanked water heater is the worst choice. The tank takes up TONS of room and they are noisy. A pilot-light version sometimes blows out in bad winter conditions, and an electronic ignition version cycles all night. (Note: I don't have on in my van, but I did in my tailer). But, hot water is nice and I wish I had it in my van. It is on my list of things to add. I currently use a solar shower but since the the sun doesn't shine here 9 months out of the year, its far from a year-round solution.
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Old 08-29-2013, 08:44 AM   #20
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Re: No Propane Water Heater in RB?

I just didn't like the idea of starting the engine on a nice crisp, cool day in the Cascades. Guess I never really thought that through though!

Where would the Espar and flat plate mount? I'd assume the Espar could go just about anywhere? Plumb the flatplate into the fresh water supply somewhere? Would SMB build-in the hot water lines even if I didn't order a water heater?

Hmm...the gears are turning now...I just need to figure out how to do it!


Quote:
Originally Posted by carringb
Any particular reason you don't want to run the engine for hot water? IMO a flat plate heat exchanger is by far the simplest, won't take up any room inside, and will always work even if you haven't used hot water for a long time. Propane and gas heaters are both very susceptible to problems from infrequent use.

The V10 idles so smooth and quiet, once you get out of the driver's seat you can't even tell really. It's quieter than any generator, and by using it for hot water it will also give some charge to your batteries. With remote start you could even pre-heat the van for a morning shower.

I think in a van, a propane tanked water heater is the worst choice. They tank up TONS of room and are noisy. A pilot-light version sometimes blows out in bad winter conditions, and an electronic ignition version cycles all night. (Note: I don't have on in my van, but I did in my tailer). But, hot water is nice and I wish I had it in my van. It is on my list of things to add. I currently use a solar shower but since the the sun doesn't shine here 9 months out of the year, its far from a year-round solution.
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