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Old 11-02-2013, 01:46 PM   #11
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Re: 6.7L Cummins conversion project

I got my E-series diagnostics manual out and did some diggin'. There's a table in there that lists the "CAN module communication messages" and gives details from which module the message originates and to which module(s) the message is intended to reach. It implies that it is the complete list...and there are well over a hundred in the list...so I don't have any reason to believe that there is more than this to sort through. Like I said before, the van is relatively dumb compared to other cars and trucks so there aren't many modules in the network and the modules that are there don't seem to be as interdependent as they could be.

My ultimate goal is to remove the Ford PCM (Powertrain Control Module) from the whole system as it would eliminate dozens and dozens of unnecessary wires in the swap. If I have to leave it in to get it running at first, so be it...but longer term the idea is to configure a CAN module of my own that takes the PCM's place with just a few wires to deal with.

There are 31 messages originating from the PCM. Of that 31, there are 15 that I need to figure out just how important they are (the other 16 are not relevant to my van because I don't have those options installed). Of that 15 in question, there are 8 that probably aren't a big deal if I couldn't figure out because the default is everything is ok UNTIL that particular message shows up. The rest are these:

1) Axle ratio - from PCM to ABS Module and IPC (Instrument Panel Cluster)
2) Brake lamp switch - from PCM to ABS and TBC (trailer brake control ) module
3) Odometer rolling count - from PCM to IPC
4) Tire revolutions per mile - from PCM to IPC
5) Vehicle speed - from PCM to IPC, RCM (restraints control module), TBC
6) VIN info - from PCM to ABS, IPC, RCM, TBC
7) Brake deactivation switch - from PCM to TBC

A few challenges aside, I think these are the only messages I'd need to broadcast on the CAN bus in order to keep the ABS, IPC and RCM happy. The other 8 messages have to do with the gear indicator and stability control but since I'm probably going to disable the stability/traction control, I don't think those are a big deal to do without.

There are only 5 messages going to the PCM from other modules and of those 5, I don't see that it would be any issue if there wasn't a PCM in place. They appear to be just status messages... Like "Hey PCM, the E-brake is on".

Of the list above, the variable outputs # 3, 4 and 5 would seem to be the trickiest to deal with right? You'd have to figure out their range of values (and the corresponding value of XX mph for instance) in order to inject the right message . The rest would be static messages....not all that easy to narrow down from sniffing the bus but I bet they would each be present during the start up sequence or a braking event so at least that narrows down the search a little... Next step is to do some sniffing and see if can get the data I'm looking for and decode it.

On the engine side of things...I'm not having much luck finding people who know a lot about the 2013's but I'm staying optimistic. I have a couple more leads on people to talk to so I'm not stuck yet. Worst case is just to run a different ECM. However I don't like worst case because it involves too many Benjamins..

As for parts...I have a body harness coming in next week. I found a virtually brand-new "active air" air box (complete with all of the sensors and actuators) for $75 on Ebay...list price for all the parts is over $900. SCORE! I love Ebay. I'm just one major part of the exhaust, a transmission and some odds and ends little parts away from having everything I need.

Sorry for the lack of pictures...I know that's what everyone wants to see. I'm just in the wrong stage of the process for exciting pictures. I can have my wife snap a few of me with several manuals open, dual monitors with half a dozen windows open and a wiring harness and ohm meter in my lap but that just doesn't make for interesting forum posts does it?
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Old 11-03-2013, 12:33 PM   #12
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Re: 6.7L Cummins conversion project

Ok, you have my respect. Would you mind sharing how you plan to install the 6 speed clutch peddle etc.
I have plans at some point to install a ZF6, so your thoughts pictures experience would be appreciated when you get to that part of your project.
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Old 11-03-2013, 01:27 PM   #13
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Re: 6.7L Cummins conversion project

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Originally Posted by E350
Ok, you have my respect. Would you mind sharing how you plan to install the 6 speed clutch peddle etc.
I have plans at some point to install a ZF6, so your thoughts pictures experience would be appreciated when you get to that part of your project.
I'm going with an Allison 6-speed Auto.... not a manual. But just because I hear "why aren't you putting a manual trans in it?" just about every time I start talking about my project, I have looked into what it actually would take to do it, just in case I end up doing more than one of these conversions.

The most obvious route to take for the clutch is to just grab the whole pedal assembly out of a Super Duty and make it fit. It isn't a direct bolt-in by any means, at least from what I've seen of the two different assemblies, but I don't think it would be that bad. The only problem is that the clutch pedal may bottom out a little too early on the hump in the floor that is the back side of the wheel well. Two ways around this... 1) if you have a lifted van, notching the floor (or some precision blows from a heavy sledge hammer) can probably remove the obstruction fairly easily. 2) The other way is to reshape the pedals and move them slightly towards center, just enough to clear hump. Option 2 is not that good if you have big feet though. It is already tight in there. I don't have everything all detailed out to the nth degree for the pedal assembly but from what I've seen, it is doable. There might even be better assemblies to start with.

The other thing to deal with and try pull off in a clean way is the gear shifter. Whether you're using the ZF6 or the NV trans out of the RAM truck, the gear shifter comes out right about the very back of the doghouse opening. There's a good chance that the drivetrain will sit in just the wrong place for the doghouse to fit right and some moderate to extensive reshaping of that opening will have to happen. Possible to do? Yes, anything is possible. A real pain to make it work? It very well could be...

That's about as much thought as I've put into having a manual in a van. I think it is possible but definitely not a "bolt-in" kind of job.
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Old 11-06-2013, 11:28 AM   #14
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Re: 6.7L Cummins conversion project

What do you do with a brand new wiring harness direct from Mopar? You tear it apart and strip out all the junk you don't need of course!



I tried a couple times to get a used harness out of a salvaged truck but the wrecking yards wanted almost as much as the new part and they wouldn't guarantee that they could remove harness without cutting something... The obvious choice was to just bite the bullet and buy a new harness.

This is the wiring from the C2 connector on the ECM that integrates with the body. I'm about 50% done with my mods here. Most of the garbage I'm stripping out is related to 68RFE auto trans specific wiring. The Ram truck harness has several connections into the body harnesses but I'm going to reroute just about all of those into one bundle that will mate with the Ford van harness and power distribution block. I'm not too far off from being able to start up the engine on an engine stand with just a few hook ups...provided I can bypass the security in the ECM. Still working on a way around that.
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Old 11-07-2013, 04:45 AM   #15
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Re: 6.7L Cummins conversion project

Regarding your wiring harness swaps and transfers----are you tooling up to allow re-configuring them to suit yourself? By that I mean adding/removing wires to an existing connector with crimp-style terminals?
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Old 11-07-2013, 08:34 AM   #16
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Re: 6.7L Cummins conversion project

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Regarding your wiring harness swaps and transfers----are you tooling up to allow re-configuring them to suit yourself? By that I mean adding/removing wires to an existing connector with crimp-style terminals?
Absolutely! I'm a bit OCD about this kind of stuff, it has to be just like a factory install otherwise it will drive me crazy. I source the automotive style sealed connector bodies and terminals through companies like Mouser. I've had the tools for years since I've done quit a bit of wiring.

There wont be a single butt connector in this swap.
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Old 11-07-2013, 08:51 AM   #17
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Re: 6.7L Cummins conversion project

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgmetalworks
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWA
Regarding your wiring harness swaps and transfers----are you tooling up to allow re-configuring them to suit yourself? By that I mean adding/removing wires to an existing connector with crimp-style terminals?
Absolutely! I'm a bit OCD about this kind of stuff, it has to be just like a factory install otherwise it will drive me crazy. I source the automotive style sealed connector bodies and terminals through companies like Mouser. I've had the tools for years since I've done quit a bit of wiring.

There wont be a single butt connector in this swap.
If I could only find more people with OCD to work on my vehicles I'd be thrilled. Believe me, that's a compliment, not an insult. Finding someone who takes the time to do things right is not an easy task.

I try to be a crimp, solder and then heat-shrink kind of guy when working on vehicle electronics, but I have to admit it doesn't always happen, but I always try to do thing right the first time. I hate rework.


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Old 11-07-2013, 11:36 AM   #18
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Re: 6.7L Cummins conversion project

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoHauler

If I could only find more people with OCD to work on my vehicles I'd be thrilled. Believe me, that's a compliment, not an insult. Finding someone who takes the time to do things right is not an easy task.

I try to be a crimp, solder and then heat-shrink kind of guy when working on vehicle electronics, but I have to admit it doesn't always happen, but I always try to do thing right the first time. I hate rework.


Herb
Thanks! I appreciate the compliment!

When you really get down to it, buying connectors (or finding some in a wrecking yard) and buying new crimp terminals is not much more time or effort than splicing with butt connectors. In the long run, you'll have fewer problems doing it the right way. That's been my experience anyways.

In this case, I want this install to look like it came that way from Ford AND given that I'm stuffing 10lbs of crap into a 5lbs bag, I don't have a lot of room to go chasing down bad connections once everything is installed.
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Old 11-14-2013, 10:28 PM   #19
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Re: 6.7L Cummins conversion project

Let the fun begin!!!!

I finally got a CAN interface that works pretty well. After spending a bit of time trying to get a cheap knock-off to work (which never did work all that well), I broke down and bought something that has a nice interface and fully supported hardware and software. I had to build an OBDII to DB9 cable to get it to work but it is up and running and OMG THERE IS A LOT OF DATA ON THE BUS!!!!

From my previous tests with the junky device, I knew there was a lot of data transfer but now that I can actually capture more than a few seconds at a time....HOLY CRAP!

I did a simple test run of Key in, ignition on, ignition off, ignition on, ignition off, key out and that produced 15,000 data points. Here is a picture of what it looks like



working left to right, the first column basically just tells me that the message is of type "received" with an 11 bit identifier (as opposed to "transmitted"...which I'd only see if I were transmitting to the bus from this software). Time is obviously the time stamp of the receipt of transmission. The ID and the fields that follow are the interesting stuff and what needs to be deciphered. Ford is generous enough to hint at how they structure their IDs so narrowing down which ID is which won't be too hard, just time consuming. The data fields after the ID more or less show what state something is in. In other words, for something like an on-off switch, "ON" will have one unique set of hexadecimal numbers and "OFF" will have its own set. The act of switching back and forth will show up in the data stream for that specific ID. Some clever use of a spreadsheet can make relatively simple work of this but the sheer volume of data makes this a time consuming endeavor.

Its a lot of info to sort through but I kind of have to know what is what if I want any hope of making the factory gauges work without the Ford PCM.

Fun huh?!
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Old 11-14-2013, 10:33 PM   #20
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Re: 6.7L Cummins conversion project

I like my '69 Bronco. Intake valve opens, gas goes in, distributor spins, sends electricity to a plug, spark happens, gas goes boom. Repeat.
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