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Old 07-07-2013, 08:23 PM   #21
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Re: Generator versus idling small diesel?

This is why Dr. Wattenberg says "Do the experiment!"

http://www.wattenburg.us/natgas.html

So, I for one, would like to see you do the experiment.

P.S. A trucker neighbor of mine told me that long haul truckers all have small dogs.
For the reason that N.Y. City has an idling ban.
But PITA types made an exception if the driver has an animal (non-human of course) in the cab.
(So take your pet with you when you go to the City!)

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Old 07-07-2013, 09:07 PM   #22
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Re: Generator versus idling small diesel?

What a joke! The whole non idle is BS. We don't have a right to keep cool but an animal does? Guess you should lay there and get poor sleep so the next day your driving with sleep deprivation. Idiots that make these rules

W/O my engine running at high idle or driving, my A/C is fairly worthless on days over 95. Then add how much heat is generated from my insulated dog house and floor where the exhaust runs, I'm probably more incline to just use a 12v fan especially with my PH up.
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Old 07-07-2013, 09:08 PM   #23
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Re: Generator versus idling small diesel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by E350
This is why Dr. Wattenberg says "Do the experiment!"

http://www.wattenburg.us/natgas.html

So, I for one, would like to see you do the experiment.

P.S. A trucker neighbor of mine told me that long haul truckers all have small dogs.
For the reason that N.Y. City has an idling ban.
But PITA types made an exception if the driver has an animal (non-human of course) in the cab.
(So take your pet with you when you go to the City!)
PETA - People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (Or People Eating Tasty Animals if you live around here )
PITA - Pain in the ...................

so essentially, PETA = PITA if I understand you correctly?

Either way, go Truckers! Great idea!
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Old 07-07-2013, 09:34 PM   #24
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Re: Generator versus idling small diesel?

These GPH statistics made me wonder how the 6.0 PSD fared as an economical contender. Scangauge has a GPH display. Many sources recommended to not idle the 6.0 extensively because of turbo and other component coking due to inefficient combustion. Thinking that I might be running my AC while in the desert I purchased the Auxiliary Idle Control module when I bought my van. I've used it a few times extensively during the day (100+ F) but would not consider running the engine while sleeping. Here are my results on a cold engine. I'll try again some time when it is warmed up.

.85 GPH at idle (630rpm)
1.15 GPH on the AIC Charge Protect function (1400+ rpm) and no AC
1.35 GPH with the AC on on max and blower on high.

Here in San Diego that will be $5.50 per hour if the ScanGauge is accurate at all. It currently is over reporting my MPG and I assume this is all related.

Looks like I'll have to start charging my friends.
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:44 AM   #25
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Re: Generator versus idling small diesel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chromisdesigns
With regards to Sprinters, specifically the NCV3 models post 2007, long idling is a VERY bad idea. It leads to sooting up of the DPF and increased engine wear. Mercedes strongly recommends against it in their owners' manuals. If interested in the details, there is a lot of information available on this issue in the Sprinter Forums.
Thanks, great information to be aware of and research in more detail. This is the kind of information I want to look into.
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Old 07-08-2013, 10:51 AM   #26
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Re: Generator versus idling small diesel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viejo
Running any vehicle at idle to run AC is a double-plus bad idea. You're running a massive engine to extract a little bit of power for compressor and fan. Meanwhile all that waste heat from the engine is going out the exhaust, and the heat is radiating up into the van. The AC will be treading water, just trying to compete with the heat generated by running itself. And when you finally shut it down, you really bake from the heat in the block and exhaust system. AC works in a moving vehicle because you leave the heat behind you as you move. Not so in a parked vehicle. Not just theory, been there - done that.
Viejo, I’m not interested in just theory so I very much appreciate your post and opinion. However, my personal experience has been quite different than yours. And I live in one of the hottest and most humid areas of the country. The few times I’ve idled my Ford V10 van with dual A/C to stay comfortable it has worked just fine. It did not overheat or the floor get hot or anything like that. And the interior stayed cool the entire time. So I too have “been there and done that” with totally different results.

As they say, the devil is in the details, and your van may be quite different than mine. For instance, without the rear A/C on there is no way my van will stay cool with just the front dash A/C on when it’s parked in the sun on a hot Texas day. The rear A/C makes all the difference. At night the front A/C would probably keep up but we use the rear A/C anyway to get better air flow over the entire van; but run the fans on low to keep from getting too cold.

By the way, I’m guessing that since the van pictured in your Avatar has a Penthouse Roof that it doesn’t have a factory rear A/C. Is that the case? Were you using only the dash A/C?
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:31 AM   #27
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Re: Generator versus idling small diesel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by E350
....cut......

What you posted is not counter-intuitive at all. Although I, do have friends who believe that a four cylinder engine will use less fuel than an 8 cylinder engine. But that is simply not true for the same weight. I.e., putting a camper of the same weight on an 8 cyl truck vs a 4 cyl truck. It takes a certain amount of fuel to move a given weight down or up the road regardless of the number of cylinders in the engine.

I think you are on the right track. Please keep posting your thoughts and explorations.
Engines have a sweet spot, or limited range of operation, in which they get best fuel economy. It’s a complex subject best left for a different thread, but typically a smaller engine will be more fuel efficient when van is driven slowly. At higher speeds a small engine would be working so hard that it would go beyond its sweet spot and hence start burning more fuel. The same usually applies when towing – small engines are beyond their sweet spot for best fuel economy. We shouldn’t make a blanket statement that one size is better than the other. It depends on use.

On my recent trip out West the rental 30-foot RV had a GVWR of 14,500 pounds, and although I didn’t weigh it, I’ll bet it was very close to that if not over after being loaded down. Given that it had the same 6.8-liter V10 as my van, and that I got about 8.6 MPG for the entire trip, I can conclude that if my personal van had half the engine size (say about 3.4 liters) and I drove conservatively in the 60 to 65 MPH range that I would probably get close to 20 MPG instead of the 15 MPG I now get. It’s all about finding that sweet spot. When driving 60 to 65 MPH on flat roads without wind my van’s engine is not working hard enough to be efficient. That’s why new vans like the Transit and ProMaster have standard gasoline engines in the 3.6- to 3.7-liter range. It makes it possible for the engines to work in their most efficient range. And also Mercedes claims their new 2.1 liter I-4 diesel will be more efficient than their 3-liter V-6 diesel. My guess is that if driven 80 MPH there wouldn’t be much difference. At a steady 45 MPH a significant difference.

If a van was mostly going to cruise at 55 MPH top speed (think Jimmy Carter 55 MPH speed limit days) then it would need an even smaller engine to optimize fuel economy. It’s all about how fast you want to go, and whether you’ll be towing or not.

OK, a little off topic but I thought I'd share my opinion on this. In a way it's related to subject matter because trend will be towards smaller engines which will idle more efficiently.
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Old 07-08-2013, 01:54 PM   #28
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Re: Generator versus idling small diesel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance
Viejo, I’m not interested in just theory so I very much appreciate your post and opinion. However, my personal experience has been quite different than yours. And I live in one of the hottest and most humid areas of the country. The few times I’ve idled my Ford V10 van with dual A/C to stay comfortable it has worked just fine. It did not overheat or the floor get hot or anything like that. And the interior stayed cool the entire time. So I too have “been there and done that” with totally different results.
Works great for me too. I usually only run the engine for A/C for a nap while driving, but there's been many weekends where the van was primary stationary power, and since it's already running, might as well run the A/C too and give the guys a cool place to cool down. Even after running for many hours in 110F+ heat and no shade, it will still stay cool inside as long as the windshield shade is up. Most of the interior heat on hot days radiates from the dash! I do always make sure the A/C is NOT in max because this will keep positive pressure in the van and pretty much eliminate any chance of exhaust fumes creeping in.

Most state do have anti-idle laws now. I think the V10 would squeak by because most passers-by probably wouldn't even realize the engine is running. But a diesel is another story. I've gotten noise complaints after just 5 minutes of idling and even had bad reviews posted on the company facebook page and yelp. Just for idling for a few minutes (kind needed to run the hydraulics) and even on the newer diesels.

FWIW - the newer front-end vans have enough space to add the "gulf-coast ambulance package" cooling fans for the V10. Simply of pair of of electric fans to help the A/C work even better on hot humid days.
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Old 07-08-2013, 03:42 PM   #29
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Re: Generator versus idling small diesel?

Extended idling a gas engine is not the same problem as it is for a diesel van. Aside from the fact that idling will damage an EGR valve and can cause the turbo to soot up, the turbo and exhaust plumbing on a diesel really do heat up the doghouse.

It sounds like V10's do not have the same issues.

Mike
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Old 07-08-2013, 05:05 PM   #30
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Re: Generator versus idling small diesel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford_6L_E350
Extended idling a gas engine is not the same problem as it is for a diesel van. Aside from the fact that idling will damage an EGR valve and can cause the turbo to soot up, the turbo and exhaust plumbing on a diesel really do heat up the doghouse.

It sounds like V10's do not have the same issues.

Mike
Ford says they addressed any such issue when they designed the 2014 3.2L Diesel, which is the engine the OP was querying about in his first post:

"Severe-service applications like courier and transport duty call for an engine to run many hours a day under constant idling and stop-and-go conditions. The answer: the available direct-injected 3.2L Power Stroke® inline 5-cylinder turbo diesel. A precise amount of fuel is injected directly into each cylinder to optimize efficiency, while turbocharging delivers responsive power on demand. This Transit engine option is designed to help give you the right balance of power and efficiency, plus proven Ford diesel ruggedness and dependability."

http://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/t ... =Feature10

Emergency responders' vehicles idle a lot. And I know there are quite a few ambulance companies which use diesel vans. In fact, ford-trucks.com warns about using the odometer as a reliable measure of engine wear when considering the purchase of a diesel van previously used as an ambulance, just because of their long idle times.
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