Generator versus idling small diesel? - Page 4

carringb · 07-09-2013, 01:46 PM

Tim asked me to post the gulf-coast package info.

Buried on the last page or QVM Q197 is a drawing of the gulf-coast cooling fan package. At one point, I ran across a part number for the fan kit but I can't find it anymore. If anyone really wants to add it, best bet is probably scooping a VIN from an Amulance trader ad, and taking that into a dealer.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas...tml/Q179R1.pdf

Note: also has info on enabling the high-idle feature.

Chance · 07-09-2013, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carringb

Tim asked me to post the gulf-coast package info.

Buried on the last page or QVM Q197 is a drawing of the gulf-coast cooling fan package. At one point, I ran across a part number for the fan kit but I can't find it anymore. If anyone really wants to add it, best bet is probably scooping a VIN from an Amulance trader ad, and taking that into a dealer.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas...tml/Q179R1.pdf

Note: also has info on enabling the high-idle feature.

carringb,

Do you know if the "extra heavy duty 225 AMP alternator" can be retrofitted to older vans with V10?

And while I'm asking, do you know of any reliable kits to install a second alternator to older 2-valve V10s? I'm guessing it's simpler to split the current off a larger alternator, but there is something "clean" about having a dedicated smaller alternator to charge the house batteries, making it a stand-alone system.

I've seen some kits advertised for newer 3-valve V10s on pickups but even those warn against buying "other" kits that are complete junk. That in itself is concerning.

carringb · 07-09-2013, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chance

carringb,

Do you know if the "extra heavy duty 225 AMP alternator" can be retrofitted to older vans with V10?

And while I'm asking, do you know of any reliable kits to install a second alternator to older 2-valve V10s? I'm guessing it's simpler to split the current off a larger alternator, but there is something "clean" about having a dedicated smaller alternator to charge the house batteries, making it a stand-alone system.

I've seen some kits advertised for newer 3-valve V10s on pickups but even those warn against buying "other" kits that are complete junk. That in itself is concerning.

It cannot be retrofitted because Ford switched to a PCM regulated system ('09 maybe?) and the older vans have a regulator at the alternator. There is a good thread in the Electronics section about high-amp alternators. I still have the original 130A alt in my van. The only time I wish I had bigger is when I'm winching. But I only have two batts now so I think I'm better off putting the cash into more batts before a bigger alternator.

I see no reason to run a dedicated alternator for the house batts. I can't think of any advantage to that over a good isolation relay. FWIW the factory Ford aux battery setup won't charge the house batts until the starting battery has a full charge. Even ambulances don't use a dedicated alt for the box, and those things can have HUGE power draws. Ditto shuttle busses which sometime have a 2nd electric-driven A/C compressor. The dual alternator option on the diesel still combines the output of the alts, and it's isolated to the aux batts somewhere downstream.

E350 · 07-09-2013, 08:41 PM

I heard that the later diesel alternators were PCM controlled.

However, the 7.3L Powerstroke diesel (1999-2003) has two positions for alternators, neither of which are PCM controlled.

The Auragen in my van's second alternator position is pretty sophisticated and I didn't install it. But I know it is at least tied into the throttle (and maybe even the PCM). Its charge output is definitely completely separate from the output of the starting battery alternator.

If for some reason I were to ditch the Auragen and install another alternator in the second alternator position, I have no doubt that it could be set up to charge independently also.

Again, YRMV. I have a very narrow band of experience with the 7.3L E350 (which believe it or not is even different from the 7.3L F350 i.e., different turbo, no intercooler, etc.) only.

Edit: Even if an engine has positions for (i.e., room to install) two alternators, and the first alternator (the starting battery alternator) is PCM controlled, why couldn't a second alternator which is regulator controlled (internal to the alternator) be installed in the second alternator position? They would be independent of each other so why would it make a difference if the PCM did not control the second alternator?

Chance · 07-10-2013, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carringb

......cut.......

I see no reason to run a dedicated alternator for the house batts. I can't think of any advantage to that over a good isolation relay. FWIW the factory Ford aux battery setup won't charge the house batts until the starting battery has a full charge. Even ambulances don't use a dedicated alt for the box, and those things can have HUGE power draws. Ditto shuttle busses which sometime have a 2nd electric-driven A/C compressor. The dual alternator option on the diesel still combines the output of the alts, and it's isolated to the aux batts somewhere downstream.

The main advantage that I can think of to having a stand-alone second alternator circuit is that the voltage can be different; specifically higher than the typical 12 volts DC used in most modern automobiles. This could be very useful if looking to use lots of electrical power. Other than that I’d agree with you that a single large alternator is the way to go.

E350 · 07-10-2013, 01:55 PM

Let me start by saying that I don't really know much about this stuff.
So, I can only go on my own limited experience and what people more knowledgeable than me have told me.

After I had burned out the original oem alternator in the van and then burned out its replacement, also an oem alternator, I took the van to Lehr Auto Electric (Est. 1945) in Sacramento where they installed a third oem alternator which is still going strong.

They told me that they thought that the problem was that the 250 A/Hr AGM house battery is a slow charge/slow discharge big battery requiring a big demand on the oem alternator which is designed to only work intermittently to fast charge the quick charge/quick discharge starting batteries and was, thus, being overworked regardless of the existence of the isolator because the isolator was always telling the alternator that the house battery could use a little more charge.

They also told me to expect that I wouldn't get much life out of my flooded quick charge/quick discharge starting batteries because they would be overcharged by the fact that the house battery was likely nearly constantly telling the alternator to charge.

So, I took out the isolator. Completely separated the house system from the starting system, and I haven't had a problem with burning out an alternator since.

Remember, YRMV.

Chance · 07-10-2013, 02:12 PM

I had the opportunity to speak with a very nice and knowledgeable man at Danhard who shared some information with me about their 125 Volt air conditioner system; sometimes used on vans. I’m passing some of it along for anyone who may be interested. Obviously if any of this is important to your project you should call them directly or ask Sportsmobile for clarification.

At present they have one alternating current unit (listed under 125 Volts in catalog) and it’s rated at 13,500 BTU/hr. Running current draw is 12.2 Amps measured at 95 F ambient. A 1250 watt strip heater option is available. A heat pump option is not available. He also said they have a 15,000 BTU/hr unit in early R&D but he has nothing to share on that.

He stated that the compressor’s LRA (locked rotor amps, or instantaneous inrush current) is high enough that it can trip some 2,000 watt inverters. He didn’t quote the actual LRA number but said Sportsmobile uses a proprietary way to limit inrush current so it doesn’t trip the inverter on overcurrent during compressor start-up.

Chance · 07-10-2013, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E350

....cut......

They told me that they thought that the problem was that the 250 A/Hr AGM house battery is a slow charge/slow discharge big battery requiring a big demand on the oem alternator which is designed to only work intermittently to fast charge the quick charge/quick discharge starting batteries and was, thus, being overworked regardless of the existence of the isolator because the isolator was always telling the alternator that the house battery could use a little more charge.

.....cut.....

That's a very valid point. If I were to run a small air conditioner up to 8 hours during the night using up to 6kWh of battery capacity, in the morning when the engine was started to start driving again the alternator would have to run at full capacity for hours. And I don't think standard OEM alternators are built to work at full current for that long a period without overheating.

I'd be concerned about such a setup for that very reason. That's not to say there may not be some extra heavy duty alternators available that have much higher duty cycles. But yeah, frying my factory alternator is one of the main reasons I didn't install enough batteries to run my small 5,000 BTU/hr A/C at night using an inverter and lots of batteries.

E350 · 07-10-2013, 02:34 PM

Hence the 5KW Auragen generator. Someday I will post a picture of it installed. The alternator for it is in excess of 12 inches in diameter.

But I am curious if there are less expensive but hardy alternators out there specifically designed to charge large batteries such as our house batteries. Possibly from the marine environment?

chromisdesigns · 07-10-2013, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by E350

Hence the 5KW Auragen generator. Someday I will post a picture of it installed. The alternator for it is in excess of 12 inches in diameter.

But I am curious if there are less expensive but hardy alternators out there specifically designed to charge large batteries such as our house batteries. Possibly from the marine environment?

Small-case high output alternators are available. We had one from Balmar on our sailboat that would put out well over 200 amps continuous for as long as you wanted. Very similar to the 4300 series from Ample Power. No idea what these go for, these days. We had ours dual-belted to the boat diesel, which was recommended by Balmar.

http://www.amplepower.com/products/a...ors/index.html