Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 01-08-2014, 10:56 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
Abitibi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 586
Hot & cold water system

Hey guys,

I just started building/designing my water system on AmbuLand and instead of fully high jacking skinny's thread (sorry mate) I thought to start a new one here...

I'm planning to have 3 systems supplied by an Espar hydronic.
1) engine block
2) hot water (sink/shower/outside tap)
3) bus heater


This is what I'm going to locate under the floor:

Espar Hydronic D10W
Homemade intake and exhaust manifolds (with 3 intakes and outputs to direct coolant flow to all 3 systems)
Simple through floor drain or Gray water tank
Valves for intake manifold


Inside the camper I plan to use the following:

Poly water tank (20 gallons)
Homemade insulated aluminum hot water tank (3-4 gallons)
Water pump
Sediment filter
Expansion tank (1/4 gallon)
FPHE (heat exchanger)
Seagull IV filter
3-way valve (to bypass Seagull IV for non-drinking water and save filter life)
Two 30" flex line to cut down water pump noise
Mixing valve
Sink faucet
Shower faucet (or use same as sink) and shower head
Outside tap/shower
Propane tankless water heater (optional but I already have one)

Hot water tank:
I'm thinking to build one so that I always have a reserve of hot water ready on demand. It would be small (3-4 gallons) in aluminum and insulated by 2" rigid foam inside a plywood box. I may integrate a 12V 300W water heater and/or a coiled copper tube (heat exchanger) inside the tank so that I can keep the water hot even when not driving around. Another option might be to have a small water pump to continuously circulate the water between the tank and the heat exchanger?

Espar manifolds:
Basically, heated coolant exiting the Espar enters the intake manifold. Each manifold arm would have a valve to bypass a system. That way I can bypass the bus heater in the summer or the full engine loop if I'm camping for a while and want to maximize my hot water efficiency.


Install considerations:

If I mount a bypass valve at the intake manifold for the engine system I guess there's a risk to forget it closed while driving with catastrophic effect! (Could be solved with a 12v valve activated by ignition?)

Should I bother with a secondary hot water tank or simply go with the FPHE?

If I'm using a secondary hot water tank, how do I avoid getting cold water once it cooled down from non-use? (Built-in heat exchanger, 12v heater, small circulating pump?)

I need to allow for easy disconnect of any parts without impacting the vehicle drivability.


I still have to buy or build the heat exchanger. If I buy one it would probably be a FPHE. What I'm not sure is how many plates would be ideal. Aside from this there will be the hot water tank & manifolds to build and get a sediment filter along with some valves. For the remaining parts I've slowly managed over the past year to find most of them either new or used from fellow forum members or on sale which saved me a bundle!

I drew a basic plan of how I intend to do it (I did say basic!, lol)


I'd really appreciate everyone's input into this. I'd doubt its as straight forward as I understand it!

Cheers,
Mr. D
Attached Thumbnails
image.jpg  
__________________

__________________
2001 E350 AmbuLand
1965 Econoline Travelwagon
1969 Econoline popup camper
1970 Econoline popup camper
A few bicycles...and sandals ;)
Abitibi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2014, 11:14 PM   #2
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 64
Re: Hot & cold water system

As someone in the same stages of design, I'm a KISS kinda guy. Keep It Simple Stupid. to me it seems like quite a bit of work to ensure hot water. With that amount of plumbing/wiring etc… there has to be simpler solution.
__________________

Waterski02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 07:19 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
Tapatio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: California
Posts: 999
Garage
Re: Hot & cold water system

Agree with the above statement. The Espar will heat up very quickly and you'll have hot water within 3-5 minutes. I've never felt that was a problem, sure you need a hot water tank(s)? Is this being built for a special purpose, i.e. pet grooming?
__________________
2006 E350 6.0PSD 5R110, SMB 4X4, RB-50, ARB lockers front/rear, Aluminess galore, AMP steps.
Callsign KK6GIY
Tapatio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 10:52 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
Abitibi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 586
Re: Hot & cold water system

It's just a camper, no pets involved

Simple is a goal for sure but doing it right is even more important. If I can get away from the hot water tank and have an efficient system that would definitely simplify my life!

I've heard of people having to wait 20 minutes for their Espar to get them hot water. I suspect their coolant loop was too long (maybe having a full loop through the engine?).

What size of heat exchanger are you using?
__________________
2001 E350 AmbuLand
1965 Econoline Travelwagon
1969 Econoline popup camper
1970 Econoline popup camper
A few bicycles...and sandals ;)
Abitibi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 01:18 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Tapatio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: California
Posts: 999
Garage
Re: Hot & cold water system

It's not very big, I think this is the one SMB uses. Make sure you get a double walled unit which will prevent accidental coolant mixing with house water.

http://ecomfort.com/la-14-10dw-braze...btu-3269.html?

Your choice of a D10 unit seems like overkill. I have a D5 which seems more than adequate for hot showers and hot sink water. I've never had issues of running out of hot water.

Lots of good information on the forum, click below.

Search flat plate results
__________________
2006 E350 6.0PSD 5R110, SMB 4X4, RB-50, ARB lockers front/rear, Aluminess galore, AMP steps.
Callsign KK6GIY
Tapatio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-09-2014, 08:42 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 197
Re: Hot & cold water system

The link below is the unit I installed in my van. It works really well.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/281178997290?ru ... 26_rdc%3D1
skinny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2014, 04:54 PM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Salt Lake City
Posts: 41
Re: Hot & cold water system

I recommend that you rethink needing a D10. Our D5 is plenty big, and it heats up the space in a hurry. Most of the it runs on low. We have a friend with a D10 on a 56 foot boat and it is too big for them.
__________________
2006 EB 6.0 Diesel, custom gaucho,
Espar hydronic and heat, 2 Solara panels,
Trojan F&R, ARB lockers, Warn winch.
BACKRDS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2014, 09:21 PM   #8
Site Team
 
daveb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Turlock Ca
Posts: 9,806
Garage
Re: Hot & cold water system

My guess is those stating they don't get hot water for 15 minutes only have a flat plate but I'm not familiar with the newer Espar units though. My Hydronic is a stand alone water heater and easily puts hot water at the tap W/I five minutes after startup.
Hot water means more to some than others and I've found that I don't use it nearly as much as I thought I would but I haven't started taking extended trips like I'm planning in the future.

90% of the usage for me is to warm the diesel engine which is important in my view but I agree with others, keep it as simple as you can.

If I had a gas engine I'd consider a flat plate only option. I mean how many showers can you get out of 20 Gallons of water before running out? If you're gonna want to shower on a more regular basis, maybe a water filtration system is warranted. Probably also depends how often you can fill up the water tank when you can find potable water.
__________________
2006 Ford 6.0PSD EB-50/E-PH SMB 4X4 Rock Crawler Trailer

Sportsmobile 4X4 Adventures..........On and off road adventures
daveb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2014, 12:43 AM   #9
Senior Member
 
Abitibi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 586
Re: Hot & cold water system

Thanks guys for all the info.

I'm sure time will tell how bad (or not) I need a hot water system. Given that I'm building this camper from scratch its way easier to do it now than retrofit down the road.

Here's some justification for this system that I didn't really explained earlier...

I'll be running the truck on veggie oil so the ability to heat up the engine with a small amount of diesel is a big bonus as I'll be able to switch on straight veggie much sooner. Plus, the easier winter starts won't hurt either. If it wasn't for that I'd be happy with just a FPHE (flat plate).

Using the Espar hydronic to heat the cabin while camping and the hot shower "might" be the missing link to get my wife to finally join me. (So maybe I should avoid hot water and heat all together?!!)

The big Espar story... I got a brand new Espar D10 full kit (except for the muffler) for cheaper than I could get just the basic D5 for. It might be overkilled but it was hard to pass! Hopefully the 4 temperature settings will let me dial it in as needed.

I've searched and found a lot of good info today on hot water system by searching "hot plate" as suggested. It got me to keep in mind winterization and a few other issues.

Thanks again, keep it coming!

Cheers
Mr. D
__________________
2001 E350 AmbuLand
1965 Econoline Travelwagon
1969 Econoline popup camper
1970 Econoline popup camper
A few bicycles...and sandals ;)
Abitibi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2014, 10:14 AM   #10
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: PDX
Posts: 92
Re: Hot & cold water system

Might try using a Marine hot water heater tank…something like an Isotherm Slimline heater. Plumb it into your loop…water stays hot for 24 hours or so according to a couple guys who have done it over on the Sprinter forum...
__________________

frostyone is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Sportsmobile SIP or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.