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Old 05-10-2017, 11:38 AM   #11
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Ray I thought the OP said a separate unit for cab heat and one for the water heating. If it's a D-5 or a Rixen setup I don't know much about those. Sorry for any confusion.
Yes, Dave, I saw that there are two independent systems. I was just making reference to the water heater circuit which I was guessing was a D5.

On your setup for hot water - I know you have the flat plate for domestic hot water and you have a separate circuit for pre-heating the engine coolant. Do you have a thermostat for the flat plate? I remember you mentioning when you turn on your water heating system in the morning, you run it for around 30 minutes or more and it is running on full? Does your water heater ever ramp down after achieving a certain temp?

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Old 05-10-2017, 01:04 PM   #12
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Yes, Dave, I saw that there are two independent systems. I was just making reference to the water heater circuit which I was guessing was a D5.

On your setup for hot water - I know you have the flat plate for domestic hot water and you have a separate circuit for pre-heating the engine coolant. Do you have a thermostat for the flat plate? I remember you mentioning when you turn on your water heating system in the morning, you run it for around 30 minutes or more and it is running on full? Does your water heater ever ramp down after achieving a certain temp?
If it's a D-5 it's completely different than the D-2 Hydronic/flat plate setup I have. I'm not sure what year SMB switched to the Rixen type systems. Yes mine ramps down...actually up and down depending on the air and coolant temperature. Coolant leaves the heater and is pumped to the heat exchange then to the engine via the Hydronic's little internal pump. Even though the engine coolant is cold, the Espar heats the flat plate w/i about 3 min. and I have hot water at the tap. Sometimes when I start it cold, it will cycle on, ramp up, then shut down and throw a code. I wasn't letting it complete its full cycling and thought something was wrong cause of the code but I just needed to give it time to start. After a few minutes the system would kick back on and start normal operation. Still even if the Espar is "off", water flows through the (cold) flat plate and all I'll get is cold water out of the hot faucet. I did later install a separate circulating pump so I can use a hot engine to heat the flat plate without having to turn on the Espar but most owners don't have that. For me the extra pump in my case heats the engine quicker.

With my system if the coolant flow is blocked for some reason (or the Espar pump has failed), the unit usually throws an overheat code and shuts down, but you should still get water (cold water) at the sink flowing from the tank through the flat plate and to the hot water faucet.
Sorry if we're talkin two different animals.
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Hydronic pulled.jpg   Espar diagram.JPG   Hydronic schematic.png  
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Old 05-10-2017, 01:15 PM   #13
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If it's a D-5 it's completely different than the D-2 Hydronic/flat plate setup I have. I'm not sure what year SMB switched to the Rixen type systems. Yes mine ramps down...actually up and down depending on the air and coolant temperature. Coolant leaves the heater and is pumped to the heat exchange then to the engine via the Hydronic's little internal pump. Even though the engine coolant is cold, the Espar heats the flat plate w/i about 3 min. and I have hot water at the tap. Sometimes when I start it cold, it will cycle on, ramp up, then shut down and throw a code. I wasn't letting it complete its full cycling and thought something was wrong cause of the code but I just needed to give it time to start. After a few minutes the system would kick back on and start normal operation. Still even if the Espar is "off", water flows through the (cold) flat plate and all I'll get is cold water out of the hot faucet. I did later install a separate circulating pump so I can use a hot engine to heat the flat plate without having to turn on the Espar but most owners don't have that. For me the extra pump in my case heats the engine quicker.

With my system if the coolant flow is blocked for some reason (or the Espar pump has failed), the unit usually throws an overheat code and shuts down, but you should still get water (cold water) at the sink flowing from the tank through the flat plate and to the hot water faucet.
Sorry if we're talkin two different animals.
Hope not to derail the thread, but daveb, do you have your setup documented anywhere? I currently have a D2 for heat, and my wife would like some hot water! Also, wouldn't mind the 7.3 getting preheated before i drive my daily commute, not that it's the daily. Thanks!
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Old 05-10-2017, 02:51 PM   #14
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Hope not to derail the thread, but daveb, do you have your setup documented anywhere? I currently have a D2 for heat, and my wife would like some hot water! Also, wouldn't mind the 7.3 getting preheated before i drive my daily commute, not that it's the daily. Thanks!
No nothing in docs. Espar uses the same designations for different products. I have a D-2 Airtronic cab heater and a separate D-2 Hydronic water heater. One is in the front of the van and the other is at the back doors. Each has its own control panel. Kind of confusing. I may be mistaken but thought that the D-5 can be used as a cab and water heater all in one. IIRC the hydronic D-2 cost a couple grand (installed price) by itself . Installation included the flat plate and hookup. Both units work off the same Espar fuel pump system though.
I use mine to heat the engine more than water, but having hot water at the push of a switch is nice. I can also program 3 startups during a week and usually have it kick on during the night to keep the lines from freezing. 6.0 struggles a bit to start in cold weather. Within 15 min I usually see the ECT gauge on my dash start to move.

The cheap way to get hot water is installing a flat plate only but you have to have a hot engine and it does nothing to heat the engine when cold. Many opt for something portable rather than deal with a flat plate.
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Old 05-10-2017, 03:56 PM   #15
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Dave, yep, your system sounds different than today's offerings if you have a D2 Hydronic (it maybe a D4 Hydronic which was the previous Hydronic model to the D5)

Just for reference, and as many probably know:
The Hydronic (water heating) offered today is the D5 or S3. The Airtronics (Air heating)are the D2 and D4 (B designation for Gasoline fuel versions) The D2/4 Airtronics I suppose cold be used to heat water by blowing hot air over a copper coil/heater core but I have never heard of anyone doing that. Kind of an interesting idea though.

The D5/S3 are designed to heat the water passed through a heat exchanging chamber surrounding the combustion chamber heated with the diesel flame. The flat plate (water to water heat exchanger) gives the ability use a pump to heat the coolant without contamination of the domestic water system or the combustion chamber. In Dave's design, the added benefit is using the hot coolant of the engine flowing through the flat plate, to heat domestic hot water without the Espar but a pump is needed to flow the domestic hot water through the flat plate.

Using a D5 or S3 for space heat requires a water to air heat exchanger (like a radiator) and a fan blowing across the radiator. The other approach is flowing the hot water through tubes as in a radiant floor hearing system. Water to air is less efficient since it requires both a water pump and a fan.

Maybe Greg at Lubrication Specialist can add more info to this.
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:20 PM   #16
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I'm going to ask a silly question, but I didn't see it answered. The D5 furnace is running. The potable water pump is running. But is the coolant circulation pump running? If that's not running, there will be no hot coolant flowing from the D5 to the flat plate, and you won't get hot water. In my system I have the same system for both hot water and heat, and the controls will turn on the circulator pump either when the themostat calls for heat or when the thermal switch on the flat plate calls for heat.
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:19 PM   #17
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These are dual systems with one for heating the van and the other for heating the water. Both have a separate control module. Thanks Ray for your offer and I may take you up on that. It's been pouring all freaking day and thus, I have not been under the van.

I am going to head down to OX tomorrow and see other vans and how they are set up and how they get the water to run. Something has to be blocked off but not sure what.

After OX, it's off to Denver to pick up a new ADV bike. 1200GS. Fun.
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Old 05-10-2017, 09:55 PM   #18
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This integration of flat-plate and Espar heater is exactly what I've been thinking of adding to my van. The flat-plate alone just doesn't fulfill my desire (hot water early in the morning, above all). Eager to see how this turns out.

This would also be particularly useful for winter camping - which is one of the prime reasons why I have a van in the first place - and pre-heating the engine.

Do I understand correctly that I can tap into the pump that already has been installed in my fuel tank to operate the Espar Airtronic I currently have?
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:03 PM   #19
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These are dual systems with one for heating the van and the other for heating the water. Both have a separate control module.Something has to be blocked off but not sure what.
It sure sounds like it's how my system is configured. If it is like mine, the fresh water never touches the water heater. It's actually a coolant heater. The drinking water only goes from the fresh water tank to the flat plate located 6 feet from the water heater and on to the hot faucet. Both hot and cold water are pushed through the lines when pressurized by the Sureflow (or similar) fresh water pump that's inside the cab. Having water flowing from the cold side but none out of the hot faucet doesn't make sense to me.

Hopefully it's something simple. Post back what you find.
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:16 PM   #20
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This integration of flat-plate and Espar heater is exactly what I've been thinking of adding to my van. The flat-plate alone just doesn't fulfill my desire (hot water early in the morning, above all). Eager to see how this turns out.

This would also be particularly useful for winter camping - which is one of the prime reasons why I have a van in the first place - and pre-heating the engine.

Do I understand correctly that I can tap into the pump that already has been installed in my fuel tank to operate the Espar Airtronic I currently have?
I hate to drift off a repair topic to a build thread so maybe somebody should start a specific thread on the Espar units?
Mine has its own fuel pump. SMB has the fuel feed set up where if my tank reaches 1/4, the Espar looses fuel and won't start/run. Also after that has happened it can be difficult to get a prime back, so I avoid that when possible. It will throw code when that happens.
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