Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 08-28-2018, 09:13 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
achop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: SW FL * PNW * New England
Posts: 142
Vibration / misfire codes after replacement of serpentine belt, plugs, and other

After searching around for an excellent truck repair shop and soliciting advice here, I just got my 2000 V10 spark plugs/boots replaced at 93k, and also preemptively replaced my serpentine belt and PCV valve & seal. For what it's worth, I also got the MAF cleaned and replaced air filter. I requested all OEM / Motorcraft parts. The mechanic assigned to this job in this large shop seemed awfully young despite my comments to the owner about seeking them out specifically for having more experience with older V10s :-). Nothing bad to say about the conscientious and I'm sure talented young man, but there are things that come with experience.

1. My first and main concern is that the van now vibrates noticeably at idle, not sure if it continues while driving just yet. I feel the vibration in the driver's seat, and on my elbow on the window sill, and the water in the jugs is vibrating. It's easy to doubt oneself about something like this, except that I've sat in my van idling for hours, all told, on recent long trips. Under the hood, and this may be a dumb diagnostic, what vibrates the most noticeably are the yellow grip of the trans fluid, and the engine oil dipstick, which are surely vibrating due to whatever they're touching or attached to which I lamely cannot identify for you at the moment.

If, while at idle, I give it a little gas, the vibrations continue, if I give it more gas, the vibrations settle out and pretty much disappear / go back to normal, according to the water surface in half-filled jugs, and the jiggles in my seat.

I did a quick search of serpentine belt replacement followed by vibrations, and the possibilities seemed, well, a-plenty. I did not have the belt assembly replaced, forgot to ask about that. FWIW, The old belt, now my spare, cleaned up nicely, and from appearances is in perfect condition. (The conscientious mechanic who was checking for deteriorated clips connectors wires hoses etc, said those things all looked fantastic and everything was in really good shape, and I'm thrilled about that.)

I'm going to talk to the shop in the morning; they know I'll call because there were another couple issues at pick up time before they closed. I hadn't noticed the vibrating at that point.

==>> Is there any reason I shouldn't drive this rig home 7 miles? And back again in the morning. I could always leave it parked at the shop which I'm not far from now.

2. SEL & Misfires: Service Engine Soon light went on after I started my engine for the first time after paying my bill. I almost never see this, tho I went a lot longer between oil changes in earlier days, and my last oil change was just under 3000 miles ago. At the shop, they checked codes and saw cylinder 4 and 8 misfires. The more experienced mechanic in charge suggested the coils needed replacing, and that it was just coincidence for it to happen then. And I'm certainly willing to accept that (after talking to YOU guys of course :-). Including doing a whole 10 coil job if need be, presuming this shop gives me a price break on their usual 20% part markup. They cleared the codes, offered to have me leave the car there but suggested I drive it home to see if the service engine light came back on. I drove about a mile to Home Depot and the service engine light did come on.

I'm sure that, as they told me, the service engine light was not on when Julian did the final test drive etcetera.

I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on how I should respond to that situation. While I don't think it's coincidence, exactly, (don't much believe in coincidences wrt new 'bugs' after system changes, as a software/IT engineer)... which is to say I find it hard to believe I would have gotten two cylinders misfiring at this particular point in time if I hadn't just done spark plugs/boots. On the other hand, sometimes work can allow pending issues to surface and I don't know enough to no better.

Also, wouldn't the check engine light be on for misfires? Why would it be the service engine light associated with those codes?

3. Clicking, seemingly from inside the driver's door: The absolute first thing I noticed after starting my car for the first time (and opening my window a bit for air) was a clicking noise from my left as if inside the door. I've been warned to listen for clicking as a sign of my exhaust escaping when my exhaust manifold studs can't meet the task anymore. For this reason I walked around the van listening but didn't detect anything new and the clicking had stopped after a little while. The clicking in the door has not returned. It's disconcerting to hear such a noise, and I already know I have some issues in that door. The driver's door lock unlock buttons don't work and the window is just beginning to show signs of needing cleaning or lubricating of the track. Including the symptom just in case it rings any bells with anybody.

4. Bonus, rear AC/blower is working again, mysteriously so, after the service, though I never mentioned to them I had a problem there. (I wonder if some connector got reseated or some other random thing as Julian made his way through my engine). I had not yet done my homework, and thought maybe it would just be a fuse or something I could track down and fix myself. I've never really used the AC in the rear, since purchasing the van over a year ago. I turned it on once for a couple of minutes just to try, and then for only the second time, last July for a few minutes when the blower of cold air in the rear just stopped => no more mechanical noise of blowing. I guess I left the dial turned on though since it came on when I started the van, what was the last thing I noticed :-)

I imagine the first three issues are distinct and unrelated, but clumped them here in an awfully long thread due to the shared context . Please let me know if I should separate them out into different threads. Thanks to anyone who's up for a puzzler this evening :-) Have a good one

Cheers!
Anne
__________________

__________________
Muy Bonita - 2000 Ford E-350 V10 Quigley with 285/75 R16s, SMB-West RB50, manual PH
achop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2018, 10:12 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
MountainBikeRoamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: OrangeCounty, CA
Posts: 1,250
Garage
Sorry to hear that things aren't quite right! Always aggravating (especially so) when these kind of results happen after you've done your due diligence in selecting a reputable shop, actively researching the work you want done, and likely paying a slight premium for quality parts and labor. Yargh! I feel for you. No bueno. But it seems this is likely a minor shop error somewhere that will show itself pretty soon and have you sailing smoothly once again.

Slight vibration, check engine light --- you're still relying on the repair shop to tell you what the trouble codes are, correct? Not to preemptively doubt their integrity or honesty, but.....what's the phrase, "trust, but verify" ?

It's well worth ponying up a few bucks to get your own OBD2 code reader so that you can be 100% armed with the same "full story" that your engine's computer is relaying to the mechanics.

After the work you had done, and the presumed expense, it doesn't make sense for there to be sudden trouble codes and vibration issues unless something wasn't done quite right.....

V10 experts --- is it possible for a plug (coil) wire to be swapped between two adjacent coils, creating an ignition misfire situation? On an old-school V8, it's certainly possible to do this...engine will run, but not at its best, and with some solid vibration....wondering if a V10 could still somehow (by virtue of having more cylinders to smooth out the issue) still run reasonably well with a couple plug wires swapped (or perhaps with even something as simple as one coil inadvertently disconnected.) This would in theory cause a slight imbalance/vibration and trip a check engine light pretty quick.

Just theorizing.
__________________

__________________
Mike T
___________________
'95 Ford E250 RB30 PH
MountainBikeRoamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2018, 10:23 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
MadScience's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: SF Peninsula
Posts: 771
Misfires will lead to the vibration you described in (1).

There's only one light on the older e series dash. While I think it reads what you say, it's not a service reminder, it's just there to tell you that something set a code.

There's no way anyone that just did plugs and boots on a v10 should suggest that they aren't a likely cause of a subsequent misfire.

What sort of a state were the plastic connector clips in? Both for the coils and for the injectors? I ended up replacing all the clips for the injectors on my '99 when I did my plugs this past winter.

Edit: Swapping connections is not likely unless the harness has been unravelled. If everything is connected they will only reach the correct cylinder.
__________________

'99 EB ex ENG KSWB news van, low rent 4x4 conversion (mostly fixed by now), home built interior.
MadScience is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2018, 10:24 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
carringb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Corvallis, OR
Posts: 4,269
I don't think the leads are long enough to swap them.

But what I have learned the hard way, is the fuel injector connector clips are super small and brittle, and I've knocked some loose doing my own plugs. Proper repair of course is to replace the connector, but I've just secured the connector to its injector with small zip ties. Works fine. But I'd start by checking all the injector connectors. And of course make sure all the coils were plugged back in too. I've missed one almost every time...

Anne - The SES light is the same as the Check Engine light. Ford switched terms at some point, because there's a reason this is a meme:


BTW - One misfire can trigger multiple cylinder codes. You always want to check the cylinder first in firing order (#8 in this case) because crankshaft experiences enough windup flex, the PCM can misinterpret it as another misfire.

It's ok to drive BTW. When the PCM detects an ongoing misfire, it just shuts off that cylinder. In your case, it may be inadvertantly shutting off both of them throwing a code, making the vibration worse.
__________________
2000 E350 extended wagon dually
V10 w/ Banks Powerpack, Diablo Predator
Buckstop Outback bumper/grill guard
Reunel rear bumper
carringb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2018, 02:41 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
achop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: SW FL * PNW * New England
Posts: 142
First, I truly appreciate everyone's late evening helpful experiences and reassurances!

Tho I haven't had a chance to drop the van off yet, I know you're waiting with baited breath (lol). *Johnny answered the phone this time, expecting me. Said he presumed it was something like a coil connector needed to be snugged down (or something to that effect). He sounded like an old hand and was apologetic and reassuring. And in this way, the shop's experience comes thru.
(*All the Johnny's I know are excellent at their craft ;-)

MBR, thx! I'm still a bit mind-boggled by the options for scan gauges, if the term can be used generically, after several hours of manu websites and forum recommendations. Figure I'll start with a dongle and TorquePro, tho haven't nailed one down yet. ;-)

- anne
__________________
Muy Bonita - 2000 Ford E-350 V10 Quigley with 285/75 R16s, SMB-West RB50, manual PH
achop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2018, 04:26 AM   #6
JWA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Reynoldsburg, Ohio
Posts: 2,270
Send a message via Yahoo to JWA
Quote:
Originally Posted by achop View Post
4. Bonus, rear AC/blower is working again, mysteriously so, after the service, though I never mentioned to them I had a problem there. (I wonder if some connector got reseated or some other random thing as Julian made his way through my engine). I had not yet done my homework, and thought maybe it would just be a fuse or something I could track down and fix myself. I've never really used the AC in the rear, since purchasing the van over a year ago. I turned it on once for a couple of minutes just to try, and then for only the second time, last July for a few minutes when the blower of cold air in the rear just stopped => no more mechanical noise of blowing. I guess I left the dial turned on though since it came on when I started the van, what was the last thing I noticed :-)


Anne
This situation sounds like a relay mounted on the rear heater/AC case is intermittant, assuming this is a factory option, could possibly be the motor itself. If you don't use that feature its not a big deal, certainly something you can address later.

Hope all goes well with the follow-up service---sounds like they have the right guy on the job now.
JWA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2018, 08:17 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
achop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: SW FL * PNW * New England
Posts: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWA View Post
This situation sounds like a relay mounted on the rear heater/AC case is intermittant, assuming this is a factory option, could possibly be the motor itself. If you don't use that feature its not a big deal, certainly something you can address later.

Hope all goes well with the follow-up service---sounds like they have the right guy on the job now.
Thanks JWA - yeah, the rear AC wasn't blowing after my second visit to the shop, and I will indeed just keep it on the list for now ;-)

Well, the report back from Shop Mgr Johnny was that, indeed, one of the coil connectors wasn't fully connected. (I does run nice and smoothly after the tune, but it did before the plug job as well.)

[CAVEAT: I'm in no way trying to start a Triton 2-valve V10 plug torque discussion - HAHAHA, but ...]

I asked what torque was used, and Johnny said 11 ft-lbs, which he said was spec. I clarified "11 ft-lbs?" and sort of gulped, since this was, I believed, even lower that what young Julian had done (which he reported as 1/16 turn past 'hitting bottom,' I someplace gleaned this approach was sort of equiv to 13 ft-lb). I wasn't inclined at the time to discuss or request anything further, so I just went to pick it up.

I think I mismanaged my communications on this by referring to the model year having known issues, and requesting someone experienced with the 'issues'. ... rather than just saying "I'm looking for over-torque relative to Ford spec, what do you recommend" where at least he might go to the high end of the Ford spec range (7-14 Lb-Ft, as my Ford Workshop Manual says). Aside from the guys who kind of specialize in this area, most shops probably have policies about working to spec. And by "older V10 issues" he might be thinking of the 3-valve stuck/broken plugs and gone easy on the torque.

ANYWAY ... it makes me want to stop by my Ford-focused friend at Ford Performance Specialists in Mableton, GA (on my way home to FL) to check for any loosening of plugs and retorque, but I'm not sure I should let it go 2500-3000 miles before checking. I've seen recommendations to re-check torque in this situation after 100 miles. I WILL be listening for clicking sounds, though, (and it's interesting that some folks have mentioned that the clicking just before a plug blows is similar to the clicking when exhaust is escaping due to rotted out exh manifold studs ... both of which I'll be monitoring now).
__________________
Muy Bonita - 2000 Ford E-350 V10 Quigley with 285/75 R16s, SMB-West RB50, manual PH
achop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2018, 05:11 AM   #8
JWA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Reynoldsburg, Ohio
Posts: 2,270
Send a message via Yahoo to JWA
Quote:
Originally Posted by achop View Post

Well, the report back from Shop Mgr Johnny was that, indeed, one of the coil connectors wasn't fully connected. (I does run nice and smoothly after the tune, but it did before the plug job as well.)
A loose COP connector isn't unusual at all---they have a locking tab that can be easily broken also leading to loss of or intermittent contact which in turn causes a misfire, possible triggering of a "check engine" code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by achop View Post
[CAVEAT: I'm in no way trying to start a Triton 2-valve V10 plug torque discussion - HAHAHA, but ...]

I asked what torque was used, and Johnny said 11 ft-lbs, which he said was spec. I clarified "11 ft-lbs?" and sort of gulped, since this was, I believed, even lower that what young Julian had done (which he reported as 1/16 turn past 'hitting bottom,' I someplace gleaned this approach was sort of equiv to 13 ft-lb). I wasn't inclined at the time to discuss or request anything further, so I just went to pick it up.
For a long time this topic has been somewhat hotly contentious, opinions more often than not taking the lead in discussions or arguments. Most results are just anecdotal with little to no consensus what's right, what's acceptable and why all that's the gospel according to the opinion holders---me included.

IIRC the spec is 11>14 ft/lbs torque for the plugs which IMHO is extremely low. I do my own plugs for a lot of reasons but use nickel-based anti-seize on the plug threads and use 23 ft/lbs torque. A lot of good reading here: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...ead-heads.html but for me it verifies and justifies using a bit more than factory spec'd torque is fine.

As for all that fal-da-rah where seat-of-the-pants mechanics who torque plugs to some unknown unverifiable or truly unrepeatable torque setting----I want something that's definite. A post-repair failure or plug ejection where the "thass 'bout right........" spec was used is a mess waiting to happen. Some argue this point and if its on their own vehicles I say go for it---on mine its my way and nothing less.

As easily seen I too am a bit passionate about this---take it for what it's worth.

Anyway Achop glad you're back on the road for now---happy motoring!
JWA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2018, 12:53 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
achop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: SW FL * PNW * New England
Posts: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWA View Post
A loose COP connector isn't unusual at all---they have a locking tab that can be easily broken also leading to loss of or intermittent contact which in turn causes a misfire, possible triggering of a "check engine" code.
Indeed. And I was gracious about needing to return, knowing that even some expert forum members routinely missed something like this. ;-) Having spent way too much time (lol) reading and consolidating such tips and notes, I'd even written my requests for inspection of aging 'stuff', including checking for brittle/broken connector clips, etc, to which the very thorough Julian replied that everything looked really really great. (The old serpentine belt, which he returned to me clean-as-a-whistle, looks brand new at, I presume, 18 years old!) The prev owners (besides 1der) were both engineers, presumably meticulous, and the van was surely garaged. I felt great about those inspection results. ... and I want to get to 300K+ miles on this van, (presuming I can reduce my carbon footprint in other ways ;-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWA View Post
For a long time this topic has been somewhat hotly contentious, opinions more often than not taking the lead in discussions or arguments. Most results are just anecdotal with little to no consensus what's right, what's acceptable and why all that's the gospel according to the opinion holders---me included.
Right ... and I'd almost sorted out the loose "expert consensus" that I preferred, but left it to the shop to decide, only to return to the forums AFTER I heard "11 ft-lb" was used, so I spent another few hours nailing down my own humble opinion that aligns with yours (and also with FordTechMakuloco's “Important Tips When Replacing Spark Plugs on Ford 4.6L 5.4L 6.8L 2-Valve Engines” Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=kc4-z-sT1ms )

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWA View Post
IIRC the spec is 11>14 ft/lbs torque for the plugs which IMHO is extremely low.
My 2000 Econoline Ford Workshop Manual specs as low as 7 ft-lbs, meaning Johnny's 11 was just above the mean value. This doesn't imply to me he had an in-depth understanding of the Triton 2V PI minimal-threads issue and approaches, but was careful to do it "by the book."


Quote:
Originally Posted by JWA View Post
I do my own plugs for a lot of reasons but use nickel-based anti-seize on the plug threads and use 23 ft/lbs torque. A lot of good reading here: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...ead-heads.html but for me it verifies and justifies using a bit more than factory spec'd torque is fine.
Thanks for dropping that link. I was going to guess that I'd already read it, but hadn't, though I'd seen the results referenced someplace (probably by you ;-). Helpful, and it's going in my Spark Plug notes file ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWA View Post
As for all that fal-da-rah where seat-of-the-pants mechanics who torque plugs to some unknown unverifiable or truly unrepeatable torque setting----I want something that's definite. A post-repair failure or plug ejection where the "thass 'bout right........" spec was used is a mess waiting to happen. Some argue this point and if its on their own vehicles I say go for it---on mine its my way and nothing less.

As easily seen I too am a bit passionate about this---take it for what it's worth.
Worth a LOT!
I'm compromised by not being able to do my own (maybe someday, not soon tho), but will have more ample time to find a mechanic amenable to my specific requests for the next change/check. Maybe BEFORE I drive across country again, I can find someone to change my trans fluid or something, and revisit the plug torque (if Duke's doesn't volunteer to do so after they read a polite review I intend to leave).

As an aside, it's interesting that 3.6 hrs is the Mitchell (?) time to do a plug change for my my vehicle (two diff't shops quoted this), which seems quite long for a professional non-first-timer, given what some DIY-ers have mentioned. My shop comped me 2 hours of labor on my final bill, presumably because Julian took much longer than their experienced mechanics would have taken, which is fine because I presume he was being exceedingly careful about dirt and cross-threading, etc, given his great attitude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWA View Post
Anyway Achop glad you're back on the road for now---happy motoring!
Thank you. I surely appreciate your and everyone's guidance!
__________________
Muy Bonita - 2000 Ford E-350 V10 Quigley with 285/75 R16s, SMB-West RB50, manual PH
achop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2018, 03:51 PM   #10
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Dothan, AL
Posts: 13
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by achop View Post

As an aside, it's interesting that 3.6 hrs is the Mitchell (?) time to do a plug change for my my vehicle (two diff't shops quoted this), which seems quite long for a professional non-first-timer, given what some DIY-ers have mentioned. My shop comped me 2 hours of labor on my final bill, presumably because Julian took much longer than their experienced mechanics would have taken, which is fine because I presume he was being exceedingly careful about dirt and cross-threading, etc, given his great attitude.

Thank you. I surely appreciate your and everyone's guidance!
ALLDATA, a labor guide used like Mitchell, Chilton etc shows it a 4.0 hour job. Now what you have to consider is that "THIS IS HOW TECHNICIANS MAKE THEIR MONEY". The labor guide is factored off of factory warranty pay time then marked up x1.4(factory warranty times screw them). So if an average tech gets paid 4.0 hrs to do it and a super efficient tech can do 2 of those jobs in the same time then hes operating at 200% efficiency and can possible get paid for 80hrs in his 40hr work week if he keeps that pace....now on the flip side, if Joe Blow take 7 hours to do it...he still gets paid for 4 hours of work.

Glad to hear you got it figured out. I came to help and offer advice but everyone here has got you covered with such great info haha.
__________________

JOELMUNOZ3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Sportsmobile SIP or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.