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Old 10-19-2015, 10:37 AM   #1
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Anyone using lithium ion for house battery?

I'm guessing, "no"...

I was looking at the Sportsmobile area over at Expedition Portal, and saw the mention of perhaps using lithium ion house batteries. I do also see some discussion over here of this idea -- of replacing the usual lead AGM house battery with lithium ion, but I'm wondering if anyone here has actually done so, and if so how'd it go?

Would I need to replace any of the charger electronics I have here from Sportsmobile with something specifically designed to handle these lithium batteries?

Yeah, I know there's also the high cost. And, the potential for fire if they are abused (and I guess I do abuse my van).

My Lifeline GPL-4DL house battery is now 11 years old, and so I should be thinking about replacing it. I expect the smart thing to do would be to stick with the old reliable AGM technology.



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Old 10-19-2015, 11:50 AM   #2
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Re: Anyone using lithium ion for house battery?

While it sounds good and you can make a good cost analysis to make it even more appealing, I just do not see them as a straight replacement for lead acid batteries. The charging profiles are not the same, so in most cases you would need a charging device that let's you program it outside the normal battery profile range. Most of what I read has these profiles changing as more real use data comes in. Temperature also has a big impact to their life.

I have been giving this a lot of thought, but am not yet convinced to go this route. Hope this helps.


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Old 10-19-2015, 11:56 AM   #3
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Re: Anyone using lithium ion for house battery?

I agree, I don't think lithium battery's time for RV's has come yet. Their charging parameters are critical to long life and safety and I have yet to see any appropriate marine or RV charging systems for them. I don't even know if they are available in the sizes that would fit our current space allotment.
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Old 10-19-2015, 03:41 PM   #4
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Re: Anyone using lithium ion for house battery?

Saw a Sprinter with a set of them installed at SMBW. Looked like these:
http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/

Not sure about the quality or what charging parameters are required. As costly as there are you'd better have a well designed energy management system in place.
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Old 10-19-2015, 03:58 PM   #5
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Re: Anyone using lithium ion for house battery?

A friend of mine had one that "caught fire from the INSDIE to OUT!" but I don't know the details.
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Old 10-20-2015, 06:45 AM   #6
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Re: Anyone using lithium ion for house battery?

For more details on this technology in a RV here are a some good links.

This is a very good thread on some people already using Lithium Batteries
http://www.technomadia.com/2015/02/l...attery-update/

This is a good place to see some people on the bleeding edge of this technology in a RV environment.

Also AM Solar is now starting to sell Lithium Batteries and are pretty knowledgeable on the subject.

http://www.amsolar.com/home/amr/smar...batteries.html

A couple of things that block me from making the move
  • I would need to move to a new inverter/charger as my current one would not be able to provide the correct voltage parameters for charging. So I would need to add that cost into the equation.

    Solar Charger - In my case my Morningstar controller gives me the ability to program my charge parameters. But that is not certainly the case for all units out there

    And then there is the question on the voltage from alternator when driving. There are of course ways to solve this, but again at a cost.


On a good note; most (what I have seen) Lithium RV batteries are Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) and are not prone to thermal runaway as seen on Lithium-Cobalt-Oxide (LiCoO2) where we have seen the stories of fires.

for some of the advantages of Lithium Batteries
Copied from http://www.amsolar.com/home/amr/page_21
"
Lithium Battery Advantages
Extended Lifespan
Lithium batteries cost about three times as much as AGM batteries, but the longer lifespan makes them well worth the added cost. Laboratory tests show that you can expect to see about 2000 to 5000 cycles from a well-maintained LiFePO4 battery bank. These results also show that a lithium battery will deliver more than 75% of its capacity after 2000 cycles. In contrast, even the best deep cycle AGM batteries are typically only good for 500-1000 cycles. Consider the longer lifespan of lithium and replacement costs of AGM batteries when evaluating the price differences.

More Usable Capacity
Unlike lead-acid batteries that are rarely discharged beyond 50%, Lithium batteries can regularly discharge 85% or more of their rated capacity. Take for example a 100 amp hour battery – if it was lead-acid, you would have access to only 30 to 50 amp hours of charge, but with lithium you could use 85 amp hours or more. When evaluating cost, consider that there is not an “apples to apples” amp hour rating comparison between the battery types. You get about twice as much charge in a similarly rated lithium battery bank as you would with AGM batteries.

Low Voltage Sag
As the charge level on a lead-acid battery decreases so does the voltage. This means that your lights will get dim and your appliances start to run rougher. The discharge curve of lithium batteries (especially when compared to lead-acid) is essentially flat, meaning that a lithium battery at 20% will be providing nearly the same output voltage as it would at 80%. On the flip side, once lithium batteries are fully discharged, their voltage drops off rapidly, and it is the goal of the integrated BMS (Battery Management System) to protect the batteries and prevent this from ever happening. Completely discharging a lithium battery bank, even just once, can permanently damage it. Keep in mind that any battery monitor or generator auto-start dependent upon detecting sagging voltage levels will likely not work on a lithium bank. A shunt based, calibrated monitoring system will be the most effective way to detect the charge level of a lithium battery bank.

High Current Output
Another huge advantage of lithium batteries is that Peukert’s losses are essentially non-existent, meaning that lithium batteries can deliver their full rated capacity, even at high currents. With lead-acid batteries you can see as much as a 40% loss of capacity at high loads. This means that Lithium battery banks are much better at powering high current loads like a microwave or an induction cooktop.

Fast & Simple Charging
Unlike lead acid batteries, lithium batteries have no need for an absorption phase to charge the final 20%, which means that lithium batteries can quickly be charged to full capacity. If your charger can provide enough amps, lithium batteries can be charged in as little as 30 minutes, which means less time with your generator. Additionally, with lithium batteries you don’t even have to fully top off the battery bank with each charging cycle. You will never have to deal with sulfation or a manual equalization cycle. This simplicity gives you freedom to tap into energy sources wherever you can find them without worrying about needing to do a regular full charge. With lithium batteries you don’t have to worry about leaving your battery bank perpetually undercharged.

Minimal Maintenance
Compared to lead-acid batteries, lithium batteries are mostly maintenance free. The BMS does all the thinking for you, and automatically performs a “balancing” process (similar to equalization) that uses resistors to bleed off excess charge, and ensure that all the cells in the battery bank are equally charged. Additionally, the BMS along with high current circuitry, prevents excessive discharges. All you have to do is simply charge your battery, or better yet, let your solar panels charge your battery.

Efficient Charge/Discharge
Lithium batteries are much more efficient than lead-acid batteries at storing power. Lithium batteries charge at nearly 100% efficiency, compared to the 85% efficiency of most lead-acid batteries. This is especially important when charging via solar, when you are trying to squeeze as much efficiency out of every hour of sunlight as possible. In theory, with lithium, nearly every second of sunshine you’re able to collect results in power stored in your battery bank.

Temperature Resistance
Lead-acid and lithium batteries have reduced capacities in cold environments, but lithium batteries are much more efficient at low temperatures. At -20°C, a lithium battery that delivers a 1C current (one times its capacity), can deliver more than 80% of its energy. In contrast, the AGM battery will only be able to deliver 30% of its capacity. For harsh environments (hot and cold), lithium is the better battery technology.

Easy Placement
Lithium batteries do not gas like lead-acid batteries, and do not need to be stored in a vented battery compartment. They can also easily be assembled into a variety of shapes, which is an important advantage if you are trying to squeeze as much power storage as possible into a small compartment. This is also useful if you have an existing battery bay that is limited in size, but you want more capacity than lead-acid batteries are able to provide.

Weight Reduction
Lithium batteries can store about 3.6 times more usable Amp hours than an AGM battery bank of the same weight. Your vehicle will handle better and get a better MPG.

Tax Incentives
Consider the implications of the 30% federal tax rebate which will be available through 2016. When combined with a solar installation, this rebate can cover the cost of your battery bank upgrade.
"

Overall I believe we are getting close, but to make these cost efficient you need to be able to get the expected longer life span out of them.

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Old 10-20-2015, 07:38 AM   #7
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Re: Anyone using lithium ion for house battery?

I know NOTHING about this so forgive that ignorance.......only perspective is my Milwaukee Li-Ion cordless tools...........

-Is there a computer-based charging unit wherein parameters for charging needs can be tailored to the size and type of battery, something that monitors the rate of charge?

The so-called "smart chargers" included with cordless tool batteries seem to monitor, diagnose and set the charge rate according to what battery fits into the charging point. I'm almost 100% positive there's a microprocessor inside the charger case, perhaps an IC of some type in the battery too.

I'd add at some point in the not too distant future lead-acid batteries for vehicle use will give way to something else---so far that seems to be the Lithium-based stuff. The switch to something else will be challenging especially considering the typical vehicle in use today uses very similar alternators---how to integrate the two technologies into usable RV-type systems.

Anyway sorry for the high jacking.
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Old 10-20-2015, 08:37 AM   #8
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Re: Anyone using lithium ion for house battery?

I'm not far enough along in the project to do my own posting yet but I'm planning on replacing my lead-acid house batteries with lithium iron phosphate (LiFePo) batteries. This project is not for the faint of wallet. It's between leading edge and bleeding edge. Already have the batteries and am working on the charging system.

The iron component in these batteries make them much safer than regular Lithium ones. In my case the big PRO will be going from 248 pounds of battery to 40 pounds. I'll have less amp-hours but after doing some energy calculations it should still be enough for my needs. The LiFePo batteries have a real nice energy usage curve as opposed to a lead-acid where you have stop using them even though there is a lot of energy that's untapped.

The biggest CON is price. At the moment LiFePo batteries are only made in 3 or 4 factories in China so they are mega expensive. Next CON is battery monitoring. If you allow the cell charge to get too low you've instantly ruined it. One other CON is temperature. You can't charge these batteries when they are below 32 degrees.

If you willing to go the DIY route you can save a good bit of money over a packaged LiFePo system.
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Old 10-20-2015, 02:39 PM   #9
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Re: Anyone using lithium ion for house battery?

I bought some LiFePO batteries from this US based SoCal manufacturer some time ago.

For example I replaced a 80Amphr 60lb battery with a 12lb equivalent LiFePO battery.
It wasn't cheap but it's alot lighter (used it for a boat electric trolling motor.)

Good value compared to other LiFePo prices I've seen for small and large size amp-hr batteries.

http://www.bioennopower.com/collections ... ies?page=2

I see they have a 125Ah version (~$900), and I've seen 200Ah elsewhere for way alot more.
You just need two in parallel for a equivalent 250Ah AGM House Battery.
They have their own BMC so they self balance charge regulate.. another nice feature is you can never over discharge them, they just shutdown at the set safe level..
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