Van won't start (again)

pjpvi · 01-19-2008, 02:57 PM

Any suggestions on the following symptoms?

2005 E350 6.0PSD

Van has been running fine since the HP oil pump was replaced in November. Filled up with diesel about a week ago and topped the tank (transfer flow) off more than normal since I'm playing with the readings on my new Scanguage. Parked the van in my driveway which is on a slant (nose of the van down) until today. Engine cranks, but won't start (exactly like when the HP oil pump went out). Looking underneath the van, there is fuel on the leading edge of the fuel tank and feeling up above appears to be coming from a vent in the top of the tank near the front.

I also hear another noise somewhat similar to the fuel pump, but runs several seconds longer than the fuel pump does when you put the key in and turn to the position that you wait for the glow plugs to warm up. I do not recall ever hearing this noise before. Any idea what it could be? Sounds to be coming from behind the doghouse cover, but haven't removed the cover to search further.

I've leveled the van out to see if that helps and will try again, but wondered if a very full tank left parked on a nose down inclination for a week would cause these symptoms.

Love the diesel ..... when it runs!

Thanks -
Phil

pjpvi · 01-19-2008, 02:58 PM

.... one more thing. No codes showing up on the scanguage.

Phil

pjpvi · 01-19-2008, 03:30 PM

Other noise is the fuel pump / filter under the driver seat. These things must have two fuel pumps. It's not sounding good which tells me it is either dead or is sucking air??

Anyone else experience this?

Guess my van gets another ride on a flat bed tow truck ....

mmocken · 01-19-2008, 06:57 PM

Phil,

There are so many things that could be the problem, but I would suspect it is related to the recent HP pump replacement. Why? The HP oil is used to fire the injectors
- http://www.intellidog.com/dieselmann/injector.htm

The 6.0L fuel system is very sensitive. It is also possible when your fuel system was open, some contamination got in...pure speculation.

The comments here are generally correct.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Power ... engine#6.0

The fuel leakage is also a possible issue. In Chicago, we have had issues of topping off a tank in warm weather. Cold fuel expands in a full tank. Conversely, Dodge minivans gas tanks used to collapse when the warm air contracted...plastic tanks were new then.

My suggestion is to find a service outlet that knows powerstrokes. Try a big Ford dealer that sells a lot of PSD's...maybe a International dealer. A Certified Diesel Mechanic has much more detailed training

mmocken · 01-19-2008, 07:01 PM

One more thing, can you smell strong fuel fumes from the exhaust pipe? If not you injectors are not firing.

Likewise, you should be able to hear the injects fire too. Try starting with the doghouse off and listen for the injectors

pjpvi · 01-19-2008, 07:16 PM

Thanks for the info Marty.

I think I'll just call Ford to come pick it up on Monday. I actually like the dealership near me and have a much higher level of confidence in them than the ones that replaced the HP oil pump in Bishop, CA.

On the plus side it died in my driveway this time!

I have been trying to find somewhere on the web that explains what happens during the starting process on these engines. I learned a lot about the HP Oil Pump system during the last problem, but I'm kind of confused why it seems that I hear two different electric fuel pumps pressurize during the glow plug warming portion of starting the engine. I've never heard the frame mounted pump / filter assembly make the noise it is making now (or any noise). I just can't determine if the noise is that it is sucking air from somewhere or that it is dead. It does eventually shut off (because it's presurized??).

It was a cold night last night here (by SF Bay Area standards anyway), so maybe that is why the fuel was exiting the vent in the front of the tank (at least I think it is a vent).

Lastly, my scanguage isn't picking up any codes which confuses me further.

Time for a beer.

Thanks -
Phil

mmocken · 01-19-2008, 08:26 PM

Phil, please post the root cause...hopefully quick fix

BTW, I spotted this TSB
2005-07 F-SuperDuty/Excursion No-Start, High Pressure Oil System Leak:
Some trucks may develop an oil leak at the high pressure oil pump outlet fitting. This will cause a no-start condition as the computer needs to see at least 500 PSI before it will activate the injectors. In some cases the no-start will be intermittent and/or an intermittent stall with no codes will occur. If high pressure oil leak diagnosis indicates a leak at the pump, the pump outlet fitting (W301727) and the discharge tube block should be replaced with fitting and bracket kit 4C3Z-9B246-A. Do not torque the outlet fitting beyond 38 ft/lbs. If the leak is traced to the branch tube running through the engine block, replace with P/N 5C3Z9J332-B (requires removal of the transmission, flywheel and rear engine cover; new flywheel bolts required). TSB 06-14-6.
The following bulletin may be related:
Metal Tapping Noise from Rear of Engine:
Excursions built after 1-10-05 and 2005/06 F-SuperDuty may have a metal tapping noise from the rear of the engine on decel or light acceleration, or under loads when the high oil pressure is at higher levels. This may be due to a damaged/improperly fitting HP oil pump output quick connect fitting. To diagnose, you will need a scan tool with active command capability. Command the IRP duty cycle to 45% and listen at the high pressure oil pump cover with a stethescope as the engine speed is increased to 2800 RPM. If the noise is louder on the pump cover than on other parts of the engine, the pump cover will need to come off to inspect and replace the fitting. Broadcast Message 5511.

pjpvi · 01-19-2008, 08:45 PM

Will do.

I feel like I should start a "sticky" topic to track the symptoms, diagnosis and repair of my engine issues.

Phil

jage · 01-19-2008, 08:56 PM

Feel free to put a diagnosis and repair thread in the Projects section.

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I can honestly say that although I've had many an engine light and other trouble with the van it has never left me stranded (knock on wood).

Good luck with the dealer, I love knowing a good dealer.

pjpvi · 01-21-2008, 06:55 PM

Update ....

Ford dealership has been working on the van today. Couldn't get it to start, but narrowed it down to the cam timing signal not syncing (or something like that). Couldn't find a cause. When they were looking at the PCM unit checking connections, they bumped it and BAAMM the van started.

The Dealership has called Ford who said it sounds like a chafed wire problem somewhere, so tomorrow they are going to trace the wiring harnesses to look for source of the problem. I know I've read of this being an issue on these vehicles (or a possible issue).

I hope they find it. I couldn't handle the stress of waiting on every trip for it to go out only to go tap on the PCM (guess I'd better find out where that is) or wiggle wires around to get it started.

Stay tuned ....

Phil