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Old 01-08-2014, 10:56 PM   #1
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Hot & cold water system

Hey guys,

I just started building/designing my water system on AmbuLand and instead of fully high jacking skinny's thread (sorry mate) I thought to start a new one here...

I'm planning to have 3 systems supplied by an Espar hydronic.
1) engine block
2) hot water (sink/shower/outside tap)
3) bus heater


This is what I'm going to locate under the floor:

Espar Hydronic D10W
Homemade intake and exhaust manifolds (with 3 intakes and outputs to direct coolant flow to all 3 systems)
Simple through floor drain or Gray water tank
Valves for intake manifold


Inside the camper I plan to use the following:

Poly water tank (20 gallons)
Homemade insulated aluminum hot water tank (3-4 gallons)
Water pump
Sediment filter
Expansion tank (1/4 gallon)
FPHE (heat exchanger)
Seagull IV filter
3-way valve (to bypass Seagull IV for non-drinking water and save filter life)
Two 30" flex line to cut down water pump noise
Mixing valve
Sink faucet
Shower faucet (or use same as sink) and shower head
Outside tap/shower
Propane tankless water heater (optional but I already have one)

Hot water tank:
I'm thinking to build one so that I always have a reserve of hot water ready on demand. It would be small (3-4 gallons) in aluminum and insulated by 2" rigid foam inside a plywood box. I may integrate a 12V 300W water heater and/or a coiled copper tube (heat exchanger) inside the tank so that I can keep the water hot even when not driving around. Another option might be to have a small water pump to continuously circulate the water between the tank and the heat exchanger?

Espar manifolds:
Basically, heated coolant exiting the Espar enters the intake manifold. Each manifold arm would have a valve to bypass a system. That way I can bypass the bus heater in the summer or the full engine loop if I'm camping for a while and want to maximize my hot water efficiency.


Install considerations:

If I mount a bypass valve at the intake manifold for the engine system I guess there's a risk to forget it closed while driving with catastrophic effect! (Could be solved with a 12v valve activated by ignition?)

Should I bother with a secondary hot water tank or simply go with the FPHE?

If I'm using a secondary hot water tank, how do I avoid getting cold water once it cooled down from non-use? (Built-in heat exchanger, 12v heater, small circulating pump?)

I need to allow for easy disconnect of any parts without impacting the vehicle drivability.


I still have to buy or build the heat exchanger. If I buy one it would probably be a FPHE. What I'm not sure is how many plates would be ideal. Aside from this there will be the hot water tank & manifolds to build and get a sediment filter along with some valves. For the remaining parts I've slowly managed over the past year to find most of them either new or used from fellow forum members or on sale which saved me a bundle!

I drew a basic plan of how I intend to do it (I did say basic!, lol)


I'd really appreciate everyone's input into this. I'd doubt its as straight forward as I understand it!

Cheers,
Mr. D
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Old 01-08-2014, 11:14 PM   #2
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Re: Hot & cold water system

As someone in the same stages of design, I'm a KISS kinda guy. Keep It Simple Stupid. to me it seems like quite a bit of work to ensure hot water. With that amount of plumbing/wiring etc… there has to be simpler solution.
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Old 01-09-2014, 07:19 AM   #3
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Re: Hot & cold water system

Agree with the above statement. The Espar will heat up very quickly and you'll have hot water within 3-5 minutes. I've never felt that was a problem, sure you need a hot water tank(s)? Is this being built for a special purpose, i.e. pet grooming?
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Old 01-09-2014, 10:52 AM   #4
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Re: Hot & cold water system

It's just a camper, no pets involved

Simple is a goal for sure but doing it right is even more important. If I can get away from the hot water tank and have an efficient system that would definitely simplify my life!

I've heard of people having to wait 20 minutes for their Espar to get them hot water. I suspect their coolant loop was too long (maybe having a full loop through the engine?).

What size of heat exchanger are you using?
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:18 PM   #5
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Re: Hot & cold water system

It's not very big, I think this is the one SMB uses. Make sure you get a double walled unit which will prevent accidental coolant mixing with house water.

http://ecomfort.com/la-14-10dw-braze...btu-3269.html?

Your choice of a D10 unit seems like overkill. I have a D5 which seems more than adequate for hot showers and hot sink water. I've never had issues of running out of hot water.

Lots of good information on the forum, click below.

Search flat plate results
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:42 PM   #6
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Re: Hot & cold water system

The link below is the unit I installed in my van. It works really well.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/281178997290?ru ... 26_rdc%3D1
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Old 01-10-2014, 04:54 PM   #7
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Re: Hot & cold water system

I recommend that you rethink needing a D10. Our D5 is plenty big, and it heats up the space in a hurry. Most of the it runs on low. We have a friend with a D10 on a 56 foot boat and it is too big for them.
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:21 PM   #8
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Re: Hot & cold water system

My guess is those stating they don't get hot water for 15 minutes only have a flat plate but I'm not familiar with the newer Espar units though. My Hydronic is a stand alone water heater and easily puts hot water at the tap W/I five minutes after startup.
Hot water means more to some than others and I've found that I don't use it nearly as much as I thought I would but I haven't started taking extended trips like I'm planning in the future.

90% of the usage for me is to warm the diesel engine which is important in my view but I agree with others, keep it as simple as you can.

If I had a gas engine I'd consider a flat plate only option. I mean how many showers can you get out of 20 Gallons of water before running out? If you're gonna want to shower on a more regular basis, maybe a water filtration system is warranted. Probably also depends how often you can fill up the water tank when you can find potable water.
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Old 01-11-2014, 12:43 AM   #9
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Re: Hot & cold water system

Thanks guys for all the info.

I'm sure time will tell how bad (or not) I need a hot water system. Given that I'm building this camper from scratch its way easier to do it now than retrofit down the road.

Here's some justification for this system that I didn't really explained earlier...

I'll be running the truck on veggie oil so the ability to heat up the engine with a small amount of diesel is a big bonus as I'll be able to switch on straight veggie much sooner. Plus, the easier winter starts won't hurt either. If it wasn't for that I'd be happy with just a FPHE (flat plate).

Using the Espar hydronic to heat the cabin while camping and the hot shower "might" be the missing link to get my wife to finally join me. (So maybe I should avoid hot water and heat all together?!!)

The big Espar story... I got a brand new Espar D10 full kit (except for the muffler) for cheaper than I could get just the basic D5 for. It might be overkilled but it was hard to pass! Hopefully the 4 temperature settings will let me dial it in as needed.

I've searched and found a lot of good info today on hot water system by searching "hot plate" as suggested. It got me to keep in mind winterization and a few other issues.

Thanks again, keep it coming!

Cheers
Mr. D
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Old 01-11-2014, 10:14 AM   #10
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Re: Hot & cold water system

Might try using a Marine hot water heater tank…something like an Isotherm Slimline heater. Plumb it into your loop…water stays hot for 24 hours or so according to a couple guys who have done it over on the Sprinter forum...
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