Pulling (Recovering) an E-350 by frame, bumper, front hitch?

[MadScience]

Originally Posted by carringb

This is not the axle's fault. This is improper winching and rigging, plain and simple.

Any pointers on how to correctly pull by an axle?

I'm guessing straight on with a winch is better than at 75 degrees with a kinetic strap, but beyond that?

Originally Posted by carringb

Turns out I have a little experience in this area:
http://www.bobstowingcorvallis.com/photos

Impressive equipment.

[shenrie]

Originally Posted by MadScience

Any pointers on how to correctly pull by an axle?

[redneck voice]mah daddy learned me to never hook anything up to suspension or drivetrain.[/redneck voice]

whether it was helping someone get unstuck (grew up in lots of snow) or even towing (owned a vega). when i was 16, even though i remember him telling me this, lazyness prevaled. i ruined a few lca's and at least one swaybar helping people get unstuck just cause i didnt want to lay on the ground to correctly hook up a recovery strap. i wont hook up to anything but chassis or something properly affixed to it.

[jage]

Originally Posted by MadScience

Any pointers on how to correctly pull by an axle?

Don't.

[BajaSportsmobile]

Well, If you think about it - what is really "stuck" when you are buried to the hubs in sand or mud is the axles (tires and wheels) not the frame and body. If you pull from the frame, you are putting all that energy through the cable to the frame to the suspension to the "stuck" axle to get the axle to move.

If the van were upside down and stuck in the sand, you wouldn't pull from the axles, so...

I can see where pulling from and axle could make some sense in many situations.

Also, because of pulling angles, pulling from the frame often puts more down force on the stuck vehicle adding to the load to be extracted.

[geoffff]

Originally Posted by BajaSportsmobile

Well, If you think about it - what is really "stuck" when you are buried to the hubs in sand or mud is the axles (tires and wheels) not the frame and body. If you pull from the frame, you are putting all that energy through the cable to the frame to the suspension to the "stuck" axle to get the axle to move.

Sounds logical to me. I would think that in most cases, you would want to apply the same load to *both* axles -- which seems complicated.

-- Geoff

[jage]

Originally Posted by BajaSportsmobile

I can see where pulling from and axle could make some sense in many situations.

Stuck or not, the axles have little inertia where as the vehicle itself has a lot. In terms of snatching, this is bad because the body will tend to stay while the axle tends to go. Similar situation I'd think with one axle stuck and one being pulled, the body is going to want to stay with the stuck axle.

Point being, without experience and hefty tow liability, just don't. Get a shovel, call a tow truck or use a jack. Better yet, put good tow points on before going out.

[carringb]

Originally Posted by BajaSportsmobile

Well, If you think about it - what is really "stuck" when you are buried to the hubs in sand or mud is the axles (tires and wheels) not the frame and body. If you pull from the frame, you are putting all that energy through the cable to the frame to the suspension to the "stuck" axle to get the axle to move.

If the van were upside down and stuck in the sand, you wouldn't pull from the axles, so...

I can see where pulling from and axle could make some sense in many situations.

Also, because of pulling angles, pulling from the frame often puts more down force on the stuck vehicle adding to the load to be extracted.

This ^

Especially important is noting angle of the pull. If you rig high, you apply downforce which works against getting unstuck. Using a high point as the anchor, and the lowest point possible on the stuck vehicle is essential to pulling it out safely.

If you are ripping out an axle, you are undoubtedly overloading your winch-line and rigging. A couple minutes with a shovel to make a ramp, instead of pulling horizontal to lift a tire vertical out of a hole, will go a long ways too. Its pretty rare that your holding force will be somewhere other than your axles. Maybe if you high-center on a big boulder. That would be a good situation to rig from the chassis.

Not no mention.... You won't trust to your axle to take maybe 3x the static weight of your van (and that is if the chassis is buried) but you trust it not rip out when you hit a pothole at 70 MPH? If that's the case you should probably stay off most freeways in the midwest.

[BajaSportsmobile]

Originally Posted by jage

Stuck or not, the axles have little inertia where as the vehicle itself has a lot. In terms of snatching, this is bad because the body will tend to stay while the axle tends to go. Similar situation I'd think with one axle stuck and one being pulled, the body is going to want to stay with the stuck axle.

Not to belabor the point, but because it has me thinking (dangerous by itself), and I think there are real world possibilities for all of us - wouldn't a half buried axle have more inertia than the van sitting on springs above it. Snatching on the body/frame will tend to stress the suspension mounting points potentially leaving the axle behind or causing damage to them.

To carry the idea to an extreme; imagine the situation where you are once again buried to the hubs and the only angle available to pull is a side pull. Pulling on the stuck axle would be far less problematic than pulling from even the strongest anchor point on the frame.

[TwoVans]

Originally Posted by carringb

This is not the axle's fault. This is improper winching and rigging, plain and simple.

Exactly. Which is why I say:

Pulling by the axle is NOT recommended.

I didn't even realize axles had feelings. Geese, am I going to have to sit through a seminar on "axle sensitivity training" now? I gotta say, I've had about all of the sensitivity training I can handle at this point...

[coyotearms]

Originally Posted by coyotearms

Curt and Drawtite both make bolt-on front hitches with load ratings of 9000 lbs. for pulling. Curt also clearly states limits on the angle of pull (45 degrees to the side and 15 up/down) in their install manual. This makes me nervous, since that is less than the 1.5 factor one is supposed to use for winches, recovery straps and snatch straps. Now my rear Ford factory Class V hitch is 18,000 lbs, which is the rating for all Class IV/V hitches, so getting pulled out of any trouble from behind is no worry. Would love to find such a hitch for the front, otherwise there could be times when it just might be a guess whether anything is going to break! I even wonder if some or all of the massive front bumpers around for the van come close to a class V hitch (especially aluminum ones) since most of us are in need of 10,000 x 1.5 = 15,000 lbs pulling capacity on either end!

I am quoting myself to get this thread back on track, thanks! So if someone wants a front tow point using a front hitch, or use a front hitch with a winch, where does one go to get a hitch that can take it? Yes, I know in some situations recovery using the axle is preferred. If you have an after market bumper with tow hooks and/or hitch, shouldn't you be rethinking that too? We are planning a trip to Alaska this summer, and I need to be prepared.