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Old 11-08-2017, 04:22 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by tlg View Post
James,
I don't know if Agile makes a RIP kit (add a leaf in rear/new springs up front/custom shocks) for a 2WD van but its worth asking if they do. We installed the RIP kit on our 4WD Quigley and removed the Helwig rear sway bar. It handles better and is exponentially safer. Worth the call.
Very interesting, tlg!

Maybe someone here knows if such a kit is available for the 2WD. I might have even checked with them in the past, but at my age...well, you know what they say about age and memory!!!!! So, I might have to check again!

Thanks!!!!

James

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Old 11-09-2017, 08:22 AM   #12
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What shocks are currently on your van?
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Old 11-09-2017, 10:03 AM   #13
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Hey, just gonna (try to) make sure that the definitions/names of a couple items are understood universally for anyone reading this thread. (Realizing now that I referenced two separate items....but I used essentially the same name for both. And they are two very different items.)

Those two items:
1) front stabilizer bar
and
2) front steering stabilizer damper.

---------------------------------------

The front stabilizer bar will (in most cases) already exist, installed from the factory, in most E-series vans. It's the front steering stabilizer damper that one usually needs to seek out/install on their own. Each of these two items addresses very different aspects of handling.

---------------------------------------

Front stabilizer bar:
Reduces left/right sway of van.
Allows van to corner "flatter" with less sway. (Hence these are also called "sway" bars.)

A stiffer front sway bar will also have the effect of producing understeer, as under hard cornering the inside front wheel will "unweight" under weight transfer, with a net effect of less front cornering grip. (By comparison, a stiffer rear sway bar will have the net effect of producing oversteer, as the same weight-transfer situation occurs (inside rear tire unweights under hard cornering, creating less overall rear grip.)

(**So if you're following all of this....it should make better sense why installing a rear sway bar only on a van that has no front sway bar is a recipe for scary, tail-happy potentially sudden-violent-oversteer dangerous handling!**)

Front steering stabilizer damper:
Reduces steering "twitchiness" and calms down the E-series vans' tendency to react with "bump steer" upon hitting sharp road features.

---------------------------------------

As a side note ---
I might be missing something in your posts in this thread so far, but it would probably be beneficial to understand a bit better what you are desiring to correct (or improve) in your van's current handling behavior. "Better road holding" is a very broad description which will be interpreted differently by almost everyone. I dealt with some very specific (and unsafe) handling characteristics when first picking up my van (also a 2WD RB). In my case, it was unstable rear suspension behavior --- it swayed around like a whale on the freeway.

The solution was reached by replacing the tired old rear shocks with some firmer new Bilsteins, and replacing the poor quality rear tires (the bad ones were Dunlop Rovers, which had soft/flexy sidewalls, despite being a new set of load range E tires.) I should note I replaced all four tires and shocks at the same time.

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Old 11-09-2017, 10:40 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by MountainBikeRoamer View Post
it would probably be beneficial to understand a bit better what you are desiring to correct (or improve) in your van's current handling behavior. "Better road holding" is a very broad description which will be interpreted differently by almost everyone.
This is the most important thing to discuss before throwing parts at the van. "Better road holding" or "handling" will mean dramatically different vehicle behavior to road drivers vs race car drivers. Often the complaint of bad handling by a highway driver is wandering at speed when in a straight line. When a highway driver complains of poor handling while cornering it often means the vehicle is twitchy in a sweeping corner (freeway interchange ramp) requiring lots of steering inputs to stay in lane.

A quick recap of what the van feels like it's doing, what conditions it's doing it in, and what is desired will probably send the advice of this thread in a more specific direction.

-Eric
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Old 11-09-2017, 11:26 AM   #15
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What shocks are currently on your van?
Hi Rob,

I have a new set of Bilstein B6 HD shocks on the van. I was going to get the Fox Shocks, but the good folks at Agile were a bit busy when I was shopping around, so I went with the shocks I've had on my other motor home and a later diesel pusher. When I did speak with the Agile rep, he was all good with this particular shock and mentioned that there would be no need to replace them with Fox Shocks.

James
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Old 11-09-2017, 12:17 PM   #16
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Mike T,

I fully understand the difference between the front stabilizer bar and the front steering stabilizer damper.

My primary purpose of getting to the point regarding the installation of a rear stabilizer bar is to get better road handling performance, i.e. to reduce roll/sway/lean on uneven surfaces and cornering.

I, too, am of the opinion that the front steering stabilizer damper would cure the twitchiness and/or bump steer that you and carringb mention to some degree as well.

When I discussed my van with the fellow down in Southern California, in great detail, it was his opinion that should I need any upgrade to the suspension to start with the sway bar, first, since I just had the Bilstein Shocks added. Now, the one item on my van that we discussed in the beginning was a 275 pound PowerTech Generator, located at the center-rear of the van...that's a lot of weight at the end of an RB van, right? After the discussion, I was of the mind that a rear sway bar would be beneficial to better the drivability of the van. I don't have a problem with fishtailing or the like. Knowing what you know about my van now, Mike, do you think installing a rear sway bar would be beneficial for me?

James
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Old 11-09-2017, 12:21 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by ShuttlePilot View Post
This is the most important thing to discuss before throwing parts at the van. "Better road holding" or "handling" will mean dramatically different vehicle behavior to road drivers vs race car drivers. Often the complaint of bad handling by a highway driver is wandering at speed when in a straight line. When a highway driver complains of poor handling while cornering it often means the vehicle is twitchy in a sweeping corner (freeway interchange ramp) requiring lots of steering inputs to stay in lane.

A quick recap of what the van feels like it's doing, what conditions it's doing it in, and what is desired will probably send the advice of this thread in a more specific direction.

-Eric
Good points, Eric. I should have been more specific. Hopefully I have done a better job of clarifying this issue in my last response to Mike.

Thank you.

James
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Old 11-09-2017, 12:48 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James4 View Post
I fully understand the difference between the front stabilizer bar and the front steering stabilizer damper.
Ok cool!
Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. (And to clarify things for anyone else reading this thread and possibly learning this stuff for the first time.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by James4 View Post
My primary purpose of getting to the point regarding the installation of a rear stabilizer bar is to get better road handling performance, i.e. to reduce roll/sway/lean on uneven surfaces and cornering.

I, too, am of the opinion that the front steering stabilizer damper would cure the twitchiness and/or bump steer that you and carringb mention to some degree as well.

When I discussed my van with the fellow down in Southern California, in great detail, it was his opinion that should I need any upgrade to the suspension to start with the sway bar, first, since I just had the Bilstein Shocks added. Now, the one item on my van that we discussed in the beginning was a 275 pound PowerTech Generator, located at the center-rear of the van...that's a lot of weight at the end of an RB van, right? After the discussion, I was of the mind that a rear sway bar would be beneficial to better the drivability of the van. I don't have a problem with fishtailing or the like. Knowing what you know about my van now, Mike, do you think installing a rear sway bar would be beneficial for me?

James
Hey this is all great additional info.
Knowing that you have added a 275 pound generator to the rear of your van is good to know!

But far more important than the existence of that 275-pound weight in the rear of the van........the far most important thing is --- do you actually notice it having an actual effect on your van's handling?

A lot of members add far more than 275 pounds of weight to their vans in the rear (bumpers, tire racks, storage boxes, things that cantilever even farther off the back of the van, etc....) and they still have handling that is acceptable.

Like Shuttlepilot mentioned --- getting really specific in terms of understanding the description of actual handling issues or behavior is really important to understand. Still trying to understand what's not feeling "as good as it could" with your van's handling that you are looking to improve. You've mentioned you don't have any problems with fishtailing or instability of any sort....so are you simply pursuing an improvement that would give you less "lean" in turns?

At the end of the day, if the van essentially currently drives pretty well, but you are thinking that handling improvements should be made simply because of adding the weight of the generator --- well then that's tougher to address. It does sound like adding a rear sway bar likely couldn't hurt, if you feel like your van sways too much in turns --- but there are definitely trade-offs to every suspension modification.

BTW --- I would seriously defer to carringb's opinion here for sure.
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Old 11-09-2017, 02:13 PM   #19
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Thanks Mike!

I do believe that we are thinking alike where a rear sway bar might help my van reduce its roll/sway/lean factor, in 'turns' as you note, but if it doesn't I can cross that bridge when I come to it. That said, I do believe that the weight of the generator might contribute to the negative driving issues I've noted. On the whole, my van handles extremely well as it is...I'm just a stickler when it comes to getting the best ride that I possibly can. Having driven Alfas for a great number of years might have spoiled me!!!! BTW, this is my first van, so you might well know what I have been experiencing!



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Old 11-09-2017, 03:18 PM   #20
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FYI - Stiffer rear springs also increase roll stiffness, so if you upgrade your rear springs, that may reduce the need for a rear sway bar. Or at least allow a smaller sway bar. That's why the stabil-loads work.... I just can't stand the "bang" every crack and expansion joint cause when the overloads are engaged.

I tend to drive pretty fast, and don't use the brakes so much, so I went with a 1.5" rear sway bar. But... I also have lots of rear tire, so that helps cancel out the oversteer tendency a giant rear sway bar would normally induce. That said... If I stomp the go pedal, even loaded on dry pavement, it'll roast all 4 rear tires and kick the back end around. I guess I've just had it setup this way for long, steering the opposite way I'm turning seems pretty natural at this point. My dad's van OTOH, which has the same rear bar and stock wheels and tires, can't spin a tire on wet leaves since it has the 5.4L, so it feels impossible to make the rear end kick out. I did install some adapters to widen the rear track, to also help mitigate the oversteer affects of a giant rear sway bar.
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