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Old 09-21-2021, 10:13 AM   #1
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100ah Li vs. 200ah AGM

This has probably been addressed in one of the LI threads and I’ve missed it so pardon the double post if it has. BattleBorn compares their 100ah units to 200ah AGMs. Is that legit? In my case, the primary electrical load is the 2.8 amp fridge. In cold weather, the heater fan uses, I think, under 2 amps when it runs. Lights are LEDs and fluorescents but we don’t use them much. The house battery is 200ah AGM. It seems that the BB unit should handle the load but I thought I’d ask people who actually know about these things.

Thanks.
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Old 09-21-2021, 11:04 AM   #2
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I don't know if I 100% agree, but it is close. Generally the idea of comparing the 100 amp LiP04 to 200 amp AGM is when comparing to depth of discharge. We are generally told that for a longer life not to drain our AGM's below 50%. That would give us 100-amp of the 200 amp AGM battery. Battleborn goes with 100% depth of discharge, to make the 100 -amp battery. I really wouldn't recommend taking the battery down 100%, some other LiP04 manufacturers wouldn't recommend 100% complete discharge, but you see where they get there data from.

Other things to worry about with that comparison, is you are basing it off of fully charging. If you are not bring the battery to full charge then again you wouldn't have a equal comparison. I only mention because it is not uncommon for some LiPO4 charging schemes to not charge above 80%. That would make the real available power 70-amphrs not 100amphrs. You could make a debate that many people never fully get their AGMs 100 percent charged either. ( I get 70 by using a 10% depth of charge limit)

The next thing to worry about is the size of your load, in your case all of your loads are fairly minimal in size, you don't use an inverter so would rule out one of the bigger loads you would run into. Don't forget air compressors and that sort of thing either. The problem with the 100 amp LiPO4 battery is the limitation on discharge current due to the BMS. In this case they support a 100-amp continuous discharge, 200-amp for a 30-second surge. A 1000 watt inverter would be OK.

hope this helps,
-greg
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Old 09-21-2021, 02:45 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Scalf77 View Post
I don't know if I 100% agree, but it is close. Generally the idea of comparing the 100 amp LiP04 to 200 amp AGM is when comparing to depth of discharge. We are generally told that for a longer life not to drain our AGM's below 50%. That would give us 100-amp of the 200 amp AGM battery. Battleborn goes with 100% depth of discharge, to make the 100 -amp battery. I really wouldn't recommend taking the battery down 100%, some other LiP04 manufacturers wouldn't recommend 100% complete discharge, but you see where they get there data from.

Other things to worry about with that comparison, is you are basing it off of fully charging. If you are not bring the battery to full charge then again you wouldn't have a equal comparison. I only mention because it is not uncommon for some LiPO4 charging schemes to not charge above 80%. That would make the real available power 70-amphrs not 100amphrs. You could make a debate that many people never fully get their AGMs 100 percent charged either. ( I get 70 by using a 10% depth of charge limit)

The next thing to worry about is the size of your load, in your case all of your loads are fairly minimal in size, you don't use an inverter so would rule out one of the bigger loads you would run into. Don't forget air compressors and that sort of thing either. The problem with the 100 amp LiPO4 battery is the limitation on discharge current due to the BMS. In this case they support a 100-amp continuous discharge, 200-amp for a 30-second surge. A 1000 watt inverter would be OK.

hope this helps,
-greg
Thanks, Greg. That pretty much confirms my suspicion. We have an inverter but I doubt we ever come close to 1kW. Charging laptops, toothbrushes, etc.; powering Joyce's keyboard.

LifeBlue claims it has a 200ah unit but they're cheating a bit. It's really a 150 with 200 for 30 minutes (and 500 for 3 seconds). Even so, 200 for 30 should more than handle our max loads. I like it but it's 1.6" taller than the SMB original, which is sandwiched behind the rear axle as part of the underbody storage unit. I need to check whether there's room.

While the LifeBlue is almost 30% more expensive than the BB 100 (for a 50 or 100 percent increase in power, depending on the measure you use) and 3x a FullRiver AGM, it seems like the more conservative choice.

Your threads and comments on this topic are a big help. Thanks for your time and expertise.
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Old 09-21-2021, 02:58 PM   #4
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Greg knows his stuff!! No doubt about it.


I will caution folks that Li is not necessarily a direct swap into your electrical system. They don't like alternators, below freezing temps, and have different charging strategies when compared to AGM. Some have touchy BMS's installed and will shut down.



For instance, a friend of mine's 4x4 camper agm's died. We chatted about lithium but looking at his equipment, it is all made for AGM. Thus I recommended he stick with that, replace his batteries, and buy a small propane generator to keep everything charged. He boondocks for weeks at a time.
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Old 09-21-2021, 03:25 PM   #5
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Before making the switch to BattelBorn batteries myself a few years back I had this exact same question in mind, 100ah Li vs 200ah of lead. This was the reference I looked at to answer my question. So the answer is, it depends.

https://battlebornbatteries.com/comp...teries-series/

Lithium is all the rage right now, but I agree with Flux that it is not necessarily the best choice in every situation.

So far, for my use, going with 200ah in Battleborn lithium and all the supporting accessories has been a good decision for me. But not cheap.

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Old 09-21-2021, 04:23 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by ShuttlePilot View Post
Before making the switch to BattelBorn batteries myself a few years back I had this exact same question in mind, 100ah Li vs 200ah of lead. This was the reference I looked at to answer my question. So the answer is, it depends.

https://battlebornbatteries.com/comp...teries-series/

Lithium is all the rage right now, but I agree with Flux that it is not necessarily the best choice in every situation.

So far, for my use, going with 200ah in Battleborn lithium and all the supporting accessories has been a good decision for me. But not cheap.

- Eric
Your link is very helpful. (One problem with the BB webpage for me is it has info scattered around with no simple way to find it.)

We’re due a replacement for our AGM, which is how we’d got into this time sink. We’re constantly moving the external panel during the day unless we’re camped in full sunlight. If we take off during the day there’s always the question of whether we should pack the external PV while we’re gone. We’re finding ourselves having to run the van at night due to low voltage Even then, the battery can struggle through the night with only the fridge drawing power—probably because of its age. At any rate, the possibility that Li would free us up is very tempting. The latest glitch is Larry at LifeBlue says mounting his batteries under the vehicle where the AGM lives would void his warranty because the batteries can get wet. Always a new wrinkle.
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Old 09-21-2021, 05:04 PM   #7
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My 4D lifeline finally died. I replaced it with an inexpensive marine AGM, a duracell group 31M I believe with half the capacity. Goal is to keep this one as a backup starting and house load battery that can charge from solar, shore, or alternator.



I am then going to isolate my van loads and have a hard switch that allows me to run house loads with the AGM, or my lithium battery. The lithium battery will never see the alternator directly like the AGM. It will have a 15 amp DC to DC charger that will smartly charge it when the alternator is going.



Solar will come in at the loads and the battery that is switched to the loads will also get charged by the solar. I will just use the lithium charging profile for both the lithium and the agm, which will work fine. If I want to get crazy I can set the profile with my smart phone for which every battery. Even crazier would be to have two chargers but I don't need that.


I think it good to keep AGM as a backup for starting and house loads. They are also way more rugged. Lithium is amazing if cared for correctly but they are not good for hanging under the van and for use when the battery will get cold.
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Old 09-21-2021, 09:18 PM   #8
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A 100AH battery gets its rating from a 20 amp draw. If your RV's actual draw is more like 5 amps your battery rating is maybe 120Ah at 5 amp draw (numbers off top of my head....data sheets would tell the true tail). But on other hand with Lithiums low internal resistance can be charged significantly faster.
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Old 10-05-2021, 03:29 AM   #9
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Hi...Battery limit necessity depends of how you need to manage the van.

I just have 110Ah of AGM with 140W sun powered, almost 100% of the time we are not utilizing EHU and no issues separated from the profundities of winter on extremely cloudy mornings.

In my circumstance 100Ah of LiFePo would be above and beyond.

Recall the weight and space all adds up. In case you are voyaging you will in all likelihood track down the extra space more significant than 'imagine a scenario where' power.
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Old 10-05-2021, 11:21 PM   #10
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I put together a portable lithium system that I move from my Jeep to the van and back as necessary. You definitely need to change your charging system along the the lithium battery. Greg helped me select a Kisae charge controller for my 100 amp system.

On a summer trip in the Jeep I was running both a fridge and freezer for a total of about 7 amps when both were running. The freezer ran more than the fridge. We would park around 4 pm and roll out at 9 am. The battery would be drop about 25% in the 17 hours.
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