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Old 03-03-2011, 10:33 PM   #21
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Re: Jumping Starting Batteries With House Batteries

I believe Dave is on track here. The original Sportsmobile set up was (per Sure power Instructions) to wire the start assist tab to the start circuit on your key switch. So when you were cranking your engine they would join. As a lot of the diesel guys pointed out this did not help with the glow pin. A secondary issue that this arrangement brought out was that you were very likely to mask a bad starting battery, as the house battery was "helping out". This could lead to other battery issue later on. I believe they then changed it to the momentary switch that Dave mentioned. This is a much better idea then joining all the time magically behind your back. I don't think it would really matter what battery the switch was hooked to, I would suspect that if the voltage was two low to force them to combine that it would not help anyhow.But, hooking to the house would seem to be the prudent thing to do. The real intention of the Blue Sea start isolation circuit is to prevent current glitches to sensitive electrical equipment. It would make sure that they were not combined when you start, but in most cases it would not be anyway.
I guess there was a third way Sportsmobile had it wired also. Mine had the start assist tab originally wired to the run circuit, mine would engage when ever the van was running. I am very close to using the same run circuit to pick the SurePower relay (do away with voltage comparator ) and have a secondary switch to force it closed if I want. In the end it is a cheaper solution and easier to debug and understand.

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Old 03-04-2011, 06:45 AM   #22
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Re: Jumping Starting Batteries With House Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scalf77
I would suspect that if the voltage was two low to force them to combine that it would not help anyhow.But, hooking to the house would seem to be the prudent thing to do.
I seem to remember something about 3 volts being the minimum in conjunction with the Sure Power...

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4693&hilit=3v
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1322&start=15&hilit=3v
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Old 03-05-2011, 01:24 PM   #23
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Re: Jumping Starting Batteries With House Batteries

I finally located my E-mail from surepower I sent them way back when I had their product in my van. 3 volts or higher is what's needed to trigger it. The guy said many separators are used to split two starting batteries and most of the time one of the batteries will have at least 3 volts to operate it. He did comment on the voltage drop of the wire and how long the length it is which might keep the 3v from being delivered to the unit if the batterey was taken too low. His thoughts were to use the closest power source to the separator. But he also agreed that the large battery bank or house battery would be good to use as well provided those batteries are not ran down flat to 0v. Because most of us try to keep our batteries at 50% or higher, it seems to me that the house battery would be a better choice for the signal wire even though the signal wire would have to tap off the 12v conversion somewhere, run to the dash switch, then all the way back to the separtor.

Here are some more of my questions:


Thanks for the info but it didn't quite answer my questions. Note that our separators are connected to a momentary push button switch that allows the operatorto manually close the separator. That function is working fine. Here are a couple additional questions about the 1315-200:

>>>When the voltage reaches 13.2 and the separator closes, what is the amount of current it takes to operate the separator?


The solenoid Relay drive 1/5 A

>>>When it sees a charge, what is the constant amperage to keep it closed?

The same Relay drive 1/5 A

>>>Does the separator sample those voltages to the exact 12.8 and 13.2 or just close to those voltages?

Close 12.75 to 12.8-9 V

>>>Other than the 12.8-13.2 operation voltages, are there any other voltage ranges that will cause the separator to not close?

That is about it.

>>>Same question as above except are there any other voltages ranges that will cause the separator not to open?

If the aux. battery has the same range voltage 13.8 to 14+. Such as when a charger is wired to the aux. battery additional to the main battery being charged by the alternator

>>>Please list any reason that might cause the separator to work intermittently.

Most of the time when I have seen issues is bad connections would be first, The distance the Separator was mounted form the main battery too far.

too small of cable being used, Charging system not charging properly, Bad battersie shorted cell .etc. Improper grounds or no ground ,Battery separator not wired into the system properly such as main battery wired to the main battery that occurs more on the 1314 series



>>>There is a delay when the separator see a charge and closes. You said 30 seconds...is that correct?

Give or take That is what I have seen unofficially at times..
Connect debounce tCD 4.4 s


When the battery voltage rises above the
connect voltage and the relay closes, this
is the minimum amount of time it will stay
closed, regardless of the battery
voltages.

Disconnect debounce tDD 7.2 s
When the battery voltage falls below the
disconnect voltage and the relay opens,
this is the minimum amount of time it will
stay open, regardless of the battery
voltages


The last statement was somewhat confusing, but I think it is the way it keeps the unit from chattering when the voltage quickly rises of falls for brief times.

Dave.
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Old 03-07-2011, 11:28 AM   #24
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Re: Jumping Starting Batteries With House Batteries

Well, checked my wiring and the front key cranking position of the ignition switch battery interconnect that SMB wired in, and the one I'm now using to activate with my pushbutton switch, is activated by the starting batteries. All this means that if my starting batteries are below around 3 volts that pushing my new switch will not solve the dead battery starting problem. As mentioned by someone else, using this type of wired interconnect all the time (the way it is wired by SMB) can mask a starting battery problem as the house battery is always being used to assist the starting ones. As long as there is 3 volts in the starters, the rig will start as the house ones will be kicked in. I think my version of removing the auto connect and having to push a button to get the interconnect is a better setup, as if it is needed due to low starting batteries, I will realize that I need to look into the batteries at my first opportunity. But it will allow me to get running as even if the starters don't have the poop to crank the engine (or heat the glow pins) there will probably be the 3 volts needed to activate the solenoid. If not, the Blue Sea has a manual switch on the unit itself that can be used to hook the batteries together. Those that have the Sure Power setup can activate it as outlined elsewhere on the Forum.
Bottom line is, the starting batteries that Ford built in our rigs should be fine for all starting needs. If one has a problem starting due to low batteries, one needs to correct the problem. We do have house batteries with us and it would be dumb not to use them to avoid a long walk or service call. Using any of the methods mentioned on the Forum will get you going, so use whichever one works best for you. Just be aware that gas burners might never know of a starting battery problem cause the SMB setup on my rig will always bring the house battery into play. Us oil burners will be more aware of the problem with the dash lights doing funny things with the key in the on position while heating the glow pins.
So, I don't know if this makes sense to anyone, even me, but I'm not going to run a heavier wire from my house battery to my pushbutton switch on the dash. It's not worth it to me as it does what I want the way it is and I can always manually connect at the solenoid if needed.
Over, under and out....
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Old 03-13-2011, 06:09 AM   #25
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Re: Jumping Starting Batteries With House Batteries

I had the 12volt guy put my my house battery wiring kit together and if i every need to jump my start battery i reach down on the dash and flip the switch and off I go. I have this on 5 of our vans all so works great.
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Old 03-15-2011, 01:25 PM   #26
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Re: Jumping Starting Batteries With House Batteries

Ok. Lots of talk about over-charging worries on this and other threads in the forum. I got Progressive Dynamics to answer the question regarding the maximum charging level their charger will go to. It's 14.4v and you don't need to worry below 14.6v at 68 degrees F per Dekka. The Ford heavey duty 155 amp alternator peaks out at 14.4v according to Ford. I've got an electrical power engineer chewing on the question of how, given this set-up, you could ever expect to over-charge your batteries (house bank or van starting bank). I just don't see it and think this is a lot of worry over nothing. Battery life is short, period. Can't do anything to change that. Just because you get 7 or 10 years out of one or two, doesn't mean that's what you should expect. More like 3 according to the manufacturers.
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Old 03-15-2011, 03:43 PM   #27
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Re: Jumping Starting Batteries With House Batteries

Well it's a little off topic but I think it all depends on the battery's condition and the regulator. The key to over charging is "what's fooling the regulator to make it put out a full charge". Bad battery? Bad regulator? Short of some kind? It could involve the alternator, solar, and vehicle charger such as the inverter or other on board chargers as well as portable chargers. It hinges on the amperage output of the charger. Displacing the water by high amp charging can be a problem and even AGM's can be damaged in this way.

"Overcharging an AGM battery dissociates the water in the electrolyte, which is unable to be replaced, leading to premature failure".

I don't think over charging is an issue unless something is malfunctioning.
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