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Old 11-07-2016, 09:37 AM   #11
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Batteries will be stored inside the van somewhere. We're pretty set on either a Lithionics or Victron setup. We really want to have the BMS come from the battery manufacturer, and also have a built-in temp cutoff. From my research, these are the two most reputable companies that have systems out there in the world with real feedback. You could do this much cheaper with a DIY setup, but neither myself nor SMB has the experience to do this.

Both companies have their own proprietary controllers with all the safety cutoffs in place, including temp. You either have to build an insulated compartment below the van, or put them inside. Road Trek has them mounted below the van in an insulated compartment that has a heating pad. They have their own controller that manages all that.

For us, they'll be mounted inside the van as we're not aware of any plug-play controller that could do a heating pad setup. And, SMB just hasn't done any setups like that, either. We're pretty sure the battery will fit under the width-wise dinette with all the other utilities. The Victron batteries are a bit taller than they are wide, and that would likely work better for placement under the dinette seats.

This is the Victron setup we're looking at. You can add the temp cutoff for $160.

320Ah Essential Lithium Battery Bank

Lithionics has the BMS built right into the battery, or you can get it separate. Their batteries are also more compact and lighter than Victron, so you're able to get more Ah per lb. Lithionics is also more expensive, though.

12/16 Volt Batteries | Product Categories | Lithionics

What we're contemplating would be really similar to their setup (The FitRV)
Our Generator-Free RV – Lithium Battery, Solar, Alternator, and Inverter

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Old 11-07-2016, 10:02 AM   #12
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What do you envision the system cost to be? What the expected average life of the system?
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Old 11-07-2016, 10:58 AM   #13
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Cost *just* for the lithium battery system will be about $3500 more than the AGM system new (chargers, controllers, etc). Add in about $3k between the 2nd alt bracket, alternator, regulator, and factory adjustable high-idle option. Add even more for an AGS system for the engine. When I compare what we'd need from an AGM setup (400 Ah, generator, lots of solar), our increased net cost for the lithium is more like 4-5k.

Batteries will last between 2500 and 5K cycles if maintained correctly. Difficult to say how many years that will be. The general consensus is that you'll save a little bit in the long-run over AGMs if you're just comparing battery costs; def not a slam dunk win for cost savings with today's lithium prices. I suspect this will move in lithiums favor when the prices come down.

So, part of that increased cost to do it from the start will pay off long-term by way of future-proofing the van. SMB even agreed that lithiums will likely be the standard in 5-10 years (or sooner). In the event we sell the van prior to that, we feel the lithium setup will substantially increase the value of the van over AGM setups. In that regard, we'll recoup some of that lithium cost in resale. I would almost argue that we could recoup 100% of the lithium cost further down the road if most of the comparable Sprinters are AGM.

I think in today's prices, it would be cost prohibitive to convert to lithium if you already have solar and an AGM setup.
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Old 11-07-2016, 11:16 AM   #14
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If you got the cash and don't mind spending it, it sounds like a really nice system. A little touchy temp wise, but the power is pretty great and well suited for a big alternator input.

I gotta say though, the capacity, size, and DOD on those things is very very attractive. Learn some new stuff every day!!
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Old 11-07-2016, 11:22 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flux View Post
If you got the cash and don't mind spending it, it sounds like a really nice system. A little touchy temp wise, but the power is pretty great and well suited for a big alternator input.
I agree with Flux, if you can, do it. But be sure to report back.
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Old 11-07-2016, 11:39 AM   #16
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Not to Hijack this thread, but a Solar/AGM system is pretty robust if set up right and I can hang that freaking behemoth 4D under my frame and get some winter traction on the back wheels!!

The name of the game is redundancy, which a solar or dual alternator setup would afford you. Knowing how you use your rig and your loads and off grid style is a big part of the game. The other part is understanding your system and paying attention to how it charges and discharges. These are the broad strokes I have learned from this board and my travels around the internet.

But it sounds like you have done some fair research and found some great systems and worked it out quite well. I surely would go that direction if I thought the expense for my uses was justified. My use puts me right in the AGM+ Solar wheelhouse.

But yeah, we all want to hear and know about these systems. And for sure this technology will proliferate as the manufacturers increase capacity and work out the kinks.
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Old 11-07-2016, 12:06 PM   #17
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Honestly, if it wasn't for the winter use, we very well could go with AGM and be fine. Our problem comes from the fact that 3 months out of the year, we'll be in the high-alpine areas all weekend with the snow coming down making our solar panels useless. At 10K ft, it can easily be 0 degrees F or colder most of the weekend. AGM's in their freshest state will have about 60% of their rated capacity at that temp.

So, a 400 Ah AGM will have about 240 Ah; 120 usable if using 50% depth of discharge. We'll have fresh water on board (shower and toilet), and the van will be heated with an Espar D5. That means we really need to be able to have the batteries last from Friday afternoon to Sunday afternoon in those temps without solar. We really don't want to have to use a generator given that some of the places we'll be stealth camping. And we'd have to idle the van for quite awhile to get any meaningful recharge in those batteries.

This is the situation that was really the catalyst for going to lithium. The lithiums give us the capacity we need to run the D5, fridge, and lights all weekend when the snow prevents the solar panels from working. And because lithiums can take a huge charge all the way to 100%, it meant that we really don't have any concerns about the batteries limiting our stay in those situations.

If we kept the water out of the van, then it wouldn't really matter because the van would be shut off during the day. So, for us that extra 5K we're spending is increasing our capacity substantially for ski season.
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Old 11-07-2016, 05:40 PM   #18
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Sounds like an ideal solution to me. Assuming the batteries are in a vented fireproof box somewhere in the van.

(Apropos exploding lithium batteries, Some joker created an add-on to GTA 5 where you can use a Samsung S7 as a hand grenade. An S7 would in fact
make a fine weapon if you could figure out ahead of time when it was going to explode.)
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Old 11-07-2016, 08:00 PM   #19
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Since the Lithium batteries will be inside due to low temperature intolerance, the AGM's could be inside as well, and thus not suffer the 40% drop in capacity. Closer to 200 Ah would be available to cover the three days.

My guess though is with D5 fan and requisite water pumps, plus fridge and other draws, you would be looking at around 100 amps draw per 24 hr period. So, 48 hrs without charging and and you are into the AGM's less desirable sub 50% territory.

I fully understand exploring new technology/solutions, and the attractiveness of "new" and unique. If that is what you want, more power to you to explore! I spend numerous crazy hours thinking about how to do something different/better/cheaper, I get it, ask some of the members who know me, I am nuts! Truly, I understand. But I also look at reliability, life cycle costs, maintenance as major components of the final decision.

But you are asking and thus I am offering:
A few things come to mind just for discussion - why go with a D5 and the extra draw of the water pump(s)? You could go with two D2's, run both for occupant heat, run one for maintenance heat and reduce the draw for heating to about 20 amps for 24 hrs. This would also reduce your fridge draw requirements by keeping the interior around 40 degrees and you could have redundancy. Your fridge would use around 20 to 25 amps per 24 hr period. This gets you to nearly four days consumption without any recharge. And what if you go two more days and the batteries drop to 30% capacity left? They will still recharge many, many times before they need to be replaced. At the cost differential of a Li battery vs AGM, you can replace AGM batteries quite a few times. The AGM will take a heavy charge up to about 90% then needs to taper off pretty quickly for the last 10%. So, I do not really see charging as a huge factor between Li and AGM. Hot water would have to be by some other system without the D5.

One area that the AGM cannot compete on is floor space required for battery capacity. The Li batteries will take up about half the space and 1/4 the weight of similar effective usage AGM bank (unless the AGM's are considered usable down to 30% capacity, which somewhat narrows the gap). This is a big plus for Li.

But the robustness, tolerance, simplicity, and significant cost savings (this last is a bit arguable when looking at ten year time spans) around the AGM batteries is what was a strong consideration for me. One or two inadvertent mischarges on a Li bank could fry 5k in batteries very quickly, along with the other systems such as a flat plate, water lines, etc. which would also fail in a freezing condition.

Seems a bit precarious having a flat plate, water pumps, Li batteries, water lines all relying on a cutting edge configuration where the failure, if it occurs, is very expensive.

Are you back country skiing? Virtually all the towns we visited on our six week ski trip earlier this year did not allow overnighting at the resort nor did the towns look favorably on boondocking or parking where snow clearing was required. This resulted in our staying at Rv parks for many nights, not all, but most of which had power.
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Old 11-07-2016, 09:15 PM   #20
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1der, your post was a really interesting read for me. I am thinking about how to optimize systems in my van, and you gave me some really useful bits to contemplate. Thank you.
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