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Old 09-09-2015, 07:04 PM   #1
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Total Electric Build vs Hybrid propane-electric build

I am building my 2016 Ford Transit 4X4 (Quigley) and as I plan for my off-the-grid vehicle I assumed that going Propane for the heating and cooking with electricity for the rest including 110V fast water heater would be the way to go. Sportsmobile Texas (SMT) is trying to encourage me to go 100% electric and I am having major anxiety about that move. Any experience out there to guide me either way? I cannot imagine 100% electric without at least 3 if not 4 AGM batteries. I plan a 4.5CF fridge, microwave, electric water heater, and the usual TV, lights, plugs etc. Here were my arguments from a letter I wrote to SMT (redacted version)


When I want to cook with propane I do not have to turn on the generator or car but when I run both cooktops on electricity I must either run the car or generator. This means that in a campsite with other people after hours when silence is requested I can not cook (if all electric). I commonly camp in primitive sites with multiple other campers with no hookups (Mountain Bike races) and would hate to be unable to cook because of sound restrictions and the need to run a generator.

Then, on cold nights when I want heating, with propane I can run quietly all night without waking other campers. With an all electric van I will need to either start my car or start the generator in order to run my ceramic space heater. In other words, I will have to be cold when at mountain bike races or other primitive sites with groups of other campers.

With propane I have the convenience as a cook of instant flame but with electricity I have the lag time for the coil to either heat up or cool down. We got rid of our electric stoves at home due to he inferiority of electricity for cooking. I do not know a single chef who prefers electric cooktops to gas.

My experience living in Arizona is that batteries have a lifespan of 2 years. My garage is >100 degrees from May 15 to Oct 15 and that effectively cooks my batteries. Hence, with 4 of them, I have to replace them at about $500 each. That is a $2,000 cost amortized over 2 years or $1,000 per year.

As if that cost is not a deterrent, as these batteries begin to fade they no longer deliver the 200 to 400 amps advertised when new but start to fade. Hence, at the end of the 2 years of life they begin to annoy me by failing to run through the night and setting off my CO2 alarm awakening me at 2 am due to "low battery" alarms on the CO2 alarms OR failing to power the various electrical items in the trailer.

I thought that getting rid of a propane tank would free up space for a battery but apparently it does not. The only way to get a 3rd battery is to I have to move my tire out to the bumper to free space under the truck for the battery. That will effectively, take away one of my 2 rear bumper Aluminess storage arms and thus doubly penalize me for space.

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Old 09-10-2015, 11:12 AM   #2
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Re: Total Electric Build vs Hybrid propane-electric build

Strange SMB would try to sway you one way or the other...it's your choice and your money. Full electric is mainly designed for visiting places with shore power. I wouldn't even consider running a heater off batteries much less a stove for long periods of time without a huge battery bank. You'd still run into issues about re-charging a big bank and there is limited space for enough solar. Are they trying to drag you into installing Lithium batteries?
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:23 PM   #3
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Re: Total Electric Build vs Hybrid propane-electric build

I don't think I would ever go 100% electric. As you mentioned, the generator would be needed at the most inconvenient times and the built in ones are not quiet. You would need such a large battery bank and even then I would be worried about usage. I would stick to your guns and build your rig the way YOU want it and what makes sense to you. Like daveb mentioned, they probably think you're going to rv parks and plugging in to shore power so they think propane isn't needed.
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Old 09-10-2015, 12:47 PM   #4
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Re: Total Electric Build vs Hybrid propane-electric build

You indicated you are looking at an off-grid system, so I would most definitely go LP + electric and ditch the generator.

Depending on time of year and location, I would think 250-300w of solar should allow you to stay pretty well charged with the fridge, TV, furnace fan, lights etc. Others with a microwave can chime in as to whether it it worth firing up the rig during micro use to keep the battery hit lower while it is on.

I agree with you on the convenience and pleasure of cooking on gas vs. electric. I would not want an electric or induction type stove in my van. This would allow you to simmer something for quite a while if you wanted to even with a small hit to your propane tank. No way you could do that off of batteries with an electric stove.

Heat - again, I would not want to rely on electric heat. Either LP (consider a Propex vs. the standard options), or consider a petrol fired furnace that used fuel from your vehicle's tank.

Water Heater - Figure out if this is something that you really will want. The LP fired hot water tanks are nice since you will have hot water on tap ready to go, but take up space. Again, an electric heating element working off of battery power is too much draw for most standard setups in my opinion.
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Old 09-10-2015, 01:34 PM   #5
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Re: Total Electric Build vs Hybrid propane-electric build

To Daveb, The quote from sportsmobile is that "Electric is the Camper of the future" but they stopped short of pushing me hard on it. They just stated it is their recommendation to go 100% electric. I wonder if part of their reasoning is the cleaner install and savings in money. A $2,100 credit for dropping propane and a $1,750.00 savings by dropping the propane space heater for a $50 ceramic electric heater is tempting. I am not convinced having been forced to awaken surrounding campers with a quick generator or car run just to get some electricity is a PIA.

Also, to answer your other question, the battery they use is AGM (Absorbed Glass Matt) and when I review the web page I do not see lithium mentioned. Should I be angling for something else on this new build that is better than the Deka AGM batteries that SM advises?

http://www.remybattery.com/Intimidator- ... P2361.aspx?
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Old 09-10-2015, 02:58 PM   #6
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Re: Total Electric Build vs Hybrid propane-electric build

Quote:
Originally Posted by Transit4X42016
To Daveb, The quote from sportsmobile is that "Electric is the Camper of the future" but they stopped short of pushing me hard on it. They just stated it is their recommendation to go 100% electric. I wonder if part of their reasoning is the cleaner install and savings in money. A $2,100 credit for dropping propane and a $1,750.00 savings by dropping the propane space heater for a $50 ceramic electric heater is tempting. I am not convinced having been forced to awaken surrounding campers with a quick generator or car run just to get some electricity is a PIA.

Also, to answer your other question, the battery they use is AGM (Absorbed Glass Matt) and when I review the web page I do not see lithium mentioned. Should I be angling for something else on this new build that is better than the Deka AGM batteries that SM advises?

http://www.remybattery.com/Intimidator- ... P2361.aspx?
Until they come out with a low amp/high BTU output electric heater you'll never get what you want out of a ceramic heater. They pull way too many amps. Same with a stove or microwave although running either on low power for short periods of time is fine. I do that with my microwave powered by 2-210AH AGM batteries. With regard to Deka, they are a very well made battery. The fact remains having a unusually large battery bank has drawbacks. Cost is one factor, space is another, & the weight will be very heavy. figure you can only draw 50% of your total amp hour totals, you'll need a very large bank to power a heater that pulls 10-15 amps all night long. The space needed to heat is a factor to look at as would be the outside temps and the insulation losses of the construction. In the end if you did draw the bank to 50% DOD, a small solar array would struggle to recharge in a reasonable time. You'd also have to figure that you're not going to get full sun all the time and alternator charging would require a high amp version to aid in charging.

The reason I asked about lithium batteries are they charge quicker, and can be taken to much lower DOD than an AGM. So you get more bang for the size and weight. But wow...expensive.
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Old 09-10-2015, 07:02 PM   #7
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Re: Total Electric Build vs Hybrid propane-electric build

We have used a 500/1000 watt electric heater for years, but don't camp much when it's really cold unless we have a place to plug it in. We sleep in 20 degree bags and if we don't have electric, I start the van in the morning and run the heater until it's warm enough to coax the wife out of the sleeping bag. Is anyone still using the Webasto (or others) gasoline heaters? That seemed like a good option. Small space and not much electric draw for the fan.

We slept in Aspen for a week once for snow skiing and just had the small electric heater. Temps were below zero and we survived.
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Old 09-10-2015, 09:06 PM   #8
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Re: Total Electric Build vs Hybrid propane-electric build

Everybody has their comfort level. Mine is sitting in my van while it 20* and I'm in light sweats watching a good DVD. I've been down to 8* with the PH up and although slightly nippy up top, all I needed was a reasonable bag all night long when I crashed. Realistic? No, all my water lines froze even though it was toasty down below. There is a level of where you want or need to be BTU wise. Power vs BTU is not equal when it comes to electric vs propane/diesel or gas fired units. That said if you are fine all bundled up in your van there is nothing wrong with using battery power to take off the edge. My Espar D-4 pumps out some heavy BTU's with minimal amp draw and I'd never trade it for being uncomfortable while winter camping. I'm sure each owner has their own goals. I've found that neither the propane or Espar units are dead quiet when running on high. That might make a difference for some people.
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