New Fire Extinguisher

[JWA]

Originally Posted by 1der

One question I cannot seem to find an answer to:

These are single use? Once activated, they will continue to discharge until depleted?

Seems to be the case----one and done, doesn't seem to be a way to pause operation.

Viewing the other videos I'm still convinced this is a very useful extinguisher---if a group buy comes up I'd be in.

Not convinced someone completely unfamiliar with their operation could so quickly deploy one especially if any degree of panic or anxiety were to set in upon discovering a fire. That might be just me so I'd take extra time initially mentally walking through the steps to activate, maybe watching a video from time-to-time to refresh the how-to's?

[TomsBeast]

Originally Posted by Wowbagger

I am very skeptical about this, for a couple of reasons:
1) the demonstration video doesn't show the most important thing: actually putting out a fire.....


In short, I'd want to buy one and actually test it out on a real fire before i trusted my life to it - an emergency is no time to find out this is all smoke and no fire (extinguishing).

Uh... I'm guessing you've never put out an actual fire, have you? What kind of extinguisher do you currently carry? Have you looked at it? If you are trusting your life to a fire extinguisher, you're doing it wrong.



I'm not trying to be a PITA



I've passed on some training (that I got as a young man, sort of pay it back), to a few people. Whatever you carry, you need to practice at lest once.



Metal oil drain pan, 1/4" of gasoline in it, on the backyard lawn. Older expired dry chem extinguisher that I was going to take out of commission anyway, its the perfect use for them. Like the directions say "point at base of fire, left to right sweeping motion". The baking soda residue didn't even hurt my lawn. Everyone should do this, spouses and significant others, too.


I've cleaned up after a couple car fires... believe me, chem residue, pet safe and good for the environment is the last thing to worry about. Its the fire and heat that does the damage, it's the burnt plastic and rubber that damage your lungs, leave residue, hurt the environment. The sooner you can stop that reaction from continuing, by whatever means, the better. Limit property loss. Again, rule #1 is not to put yourself in serious danger.



For the hand helds to work, any hand held, you need to get kinda close to be effective. If the fire is a blaze, really hot, big, you stand back as far as you can, and helplessly let it take over. There's no point in getting burned or worse.



The key with any hand held is to get on it now, before the fire becomes unmanageable.

The guy I mentioned above, with the 50 merc chop top, had no extinguisher with him. When I came upon he and his wife, they had all but given up his beloved hot rod to the dancing angles. Not that unique of a situation.

[TomsBeast]

Originally Posted by JWA

Seems to be the case----one and done, doesn't seem to be a way to pause operation.

That's every hand held fire extinguisher... once the seal is compromised, they generally leak until you recharge them. Or throw away the disposable type and get another.

[Twoxentrix]

Had a great conversation with Paul - very informative, and they are getting together to discuss the possibility of a "group-buy"...will know something in the next day or so.

Couple take aways that may help clarify some questions:
**Not experimental technology - has been utilized for 20+ years, but this is the first time its being offered in a handheld version. To give you an idea, this technology is currently used in areas like Computer Server rooms - since it doesnt emit any fall-out (like chemical extinguishers) it doesnt harm the electronics not being affected by actual fire. Several Countries already use them in the Military (he used the example of a fire that may start in a light armored vehicle - they ignite & close the door, and it puts out the fire).
**MY FAVORITE: The casings are weather resistant so you can mount them where they are exposed to the elements, and these are not affected by outside temperature (This was one of my concerns because I anticipated having one or two available outside the van)
**The discharge reach is less than that of a regular chemical extinguisher, but these are designed to provide quick deployment to a fire, and because of the size can be stored conveniently & close to areas like cooking environments, rear of the vehicle near a generator, etc.

Its important to include that because the discharge distance is shorter than that of a handheld Extinguisher, its always a good idea to have one of those on-hand as well.
having said that, with a Chemical extinguisher, you have to have it in-hand to depress the trigger. With the E50 (or any of these others), you can simply ignite it and toss it into the designated area, and then close the door.

**This system works very effectively if you can confine the area. EX: if you have an engine fire and have the hood open, ignite the E50 & toss on top of the block, then close the hood. Same principle can apply with a fire inside the vehicle.
**The polularity is already evident in race communities, Baja style vehicle communities, Overland communities, and growing in the military segment.

I encourage them to join this Forum so they could better represent their Product. In the mean time I convinced I'm going to get a couple, but figure I'll wait a day or two to see if they offer a discount

[BroncoHauler]

Originally Posted by Twoxentrix

... **MY FAVORITE: The casings are weather resistant so you can mount them where they are exposed to the elements, and these are not affected by outside temperature (This was one of my concerns because I anticipated having one or two available outside the van)...

This would be very important to me as well in my Bronco (soft safari style top, and only tube doors).

Originally Posted by Twoxentrix

...**This system works very effectively if you can confine the area. EX: if you have an engine fire and have the hood open, ignite the E50 & toss on top of the block, then close the hood. Same principle can apply with a fire inside the vehicle...

One of the biggest challenges when fighting an engine compartment fire is opening to hood to attack the fire. Opening the hood allows extra oxygen into the fire. As long as the radiator doesn't completely block access to the engine bay from the grill, I would aim any fire extinguisher into the grill and let it do its job.

Originally Posted by Twoxentrix

...I encourage them to join this Forum so they could better represent their Product. In the mean time I convinced I'm going to get a couple, but figure I'll wait a day or two to see if they offer a discount

Thank you for taking the time to do this. I would certainly be onboard for at least one of the E50's and a roll bar mount.


Herb

[Twoxentrix]

Update: Paul made contact today and stated they are interested in joining the forum, also will be offering a discount - although He didnt provide a specific time line, from the tone I suspect within the next week.

[Element]

Hi Everyone,

First of all I'd like to thank Twoxentrix for taking the time to call our office and for bringing our attention to this thread.

To the moderators we want to contribute to the community by offering a discount to the membership while answering many of the issues brought up in this thread. We will do our best to keep commercial input to the minimum and concentrate on product info for those wanting to know more. We hope that this keeps us within the forum rules.

To those who contributed to this thread thank you and we'll do our best to answer all the questions that have/will come up. Please understand that we try and contribute to a LOT of different forums so if you don't get an answer we may have missed it and can always be contacted via email info@elementfire.com

Lastly, a group buy has been brought up and we have found group buys to be cumbersome and difficult to manage. People have to wait until a discount is realized and that is no fun.

Instead we will offer the group a special discount between now and the end of August. In order to keep it for Sportsmobile Forum members only anyone interested can PM us and we'll reply with a code you can use on our website for an immediate discount. In order to be fair to those who already placed an order, if you did order between the day this thread began and today, and are a member of the forum, please PM us your info and we will refund to you the difference.

[BroncoHauler]

Originally Posted by Element

...Lastly, a group buy has been brought up and we have found group buys to be cumbersome and difficult to manage. People have to wait until a discount is realized and that is no fun.

Instead we will offer the group a special discount between now and the end of August. In order to keep it for Sportsmobile Forum members only anyone interested can PM us and we'll reply with a code you can use on our website for an immediate discount..

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Element

...In order to be fair to those who already placed an order, if you did order between the day this thread began and today, and are a member of the forum, please PM us your info and we will refund to you the difference.

That is a stand-up move right there.



Herb

[Element]

First of all my name is Rob and I'm the guy in the Jay Leno video. Just to give you a background I met Jay at a car show where I had and Element in my hand. Once I showed it to him he (without me asking) immediately offered to have me come to his garage and film with him to spread the word. The whole deal came together really quickly so there was no time to arrange a legal on camera test with a real fire. In fact on the day of filming, things ran late so we only had time for one take. Jay is a total pro so he flowed perfectly but I was a little nervous and am pretty pleased with how I explained things on camera; it's harder than it looks Like was discussed in the video Jay got no money and asked for nothing in return. Everyone on his team were first class and we felt incredibly privileged for the opportunity.

I'm not great with the multi-quote function so I'll skim the replies already and try to answer points that have come up in bullet form below:

- From a price perspective Element is positioned about 30% more than a hardware store dry chem extinguisher but at about half of a CO2 or Halon clean agent extinguisher. We're working hard to get the price point even lower but at present the raw materials in formulation are rather expensive which accounts for our current pricing

- One thing not covered in the video is that because Element works on a principle of saturation, you can deploy it in a closed environment like a vehicle cabin and it can fight the fire without having to hold it and point it to the flames. We're working on a video that shows this.

- Again on the topic of saturation, Element works very well in tight areas like a dashboard or engine compartment where the gas can get into the tight nooks and crannies where dry chem does not have access.

- Compared to a Tundra, Element has no pressure to loose, is not affected by temperature and will not freeze, and of course makes no residue. A Tundra will put a small fire out but suffers from many of the shortcomings that bigger extinguishers have; the ones Element aims to address.

- Dry chem extinguishers are very prone to having the powder turn into a rock despite still holding pressure. Hot cold cycles in a vehicle along with driving vibrations will cause condensation and mixing (think of cement) and cause the powder to solidify. This is a very real issue with dry chem extinguishers.

- It is true that Element does not have the distance of discharge that a pressurized fire bottle does. That said in real world tests we have found that Element has a long enough discharge to be able to tackle as big a fire as is reasonable before a pro needs to be involved. That said one really cool thing is that the Element discharge has no thrust so loose trash and liquid fires are not spread the way they would be with the pressurized jet of a regular fire bottle. This allows for a K rating of cooking oils and fats and makes Element ideal for a kitchen.

- Element is single use. Once you start it there is no stopping it until depleted. Tradition extinguishers are also single use and need to be re-filled no matter how little they are used as the discharge will compromise the seals and prevent it from holding pressure.

- There is no clean up with Element. Sometimes there is trace amounts of cardboard dust from the cartridge that holds the chemicals but it is infrequent and negligible compared to the many pounds of dust from a dry chem.

- If you've never used an extinguisher it is amazing how quickly they run out. For a first timer most of the good fire fighting time is eaten up by 'getting a feel for the unit' before effectively pointing it at the blaze. You would be lucky to have 5-6 seconds so your aim better be perfect. With Element our run time is normally a min of 60 seconds which gives much more time to both fight the fire as well as get used to its operation.

- Fighting an engine bay fire is a special challenge because opening the hood introduces a huge rush of oxygen that both accelerates the blaze and creates a backdraft that is very dangerous. The longer discharge time of Element allows you to fog the engine bay through the grille or slightly cracked hood. This will create a cloud of containment in the bay and prevent an oxygen rush when opening the hood to finish fighting the blaze. This is an education piece we are working on and want to produce a video showing proper form when fighting and engine bay fire.

As a last story, last week we were contacted by a customer from the racing community who stopped at the side of the road to help a fellow motorist with an engine bay fire. It was a girl who had nothing with her and was calling the fire department for help. This customer stopped and put out the fire with his Element 50 for sure saving the car. We've had a few of these customer 'save' stories and they are always great to hear

[achop]

Originally Posted by Element

- Fighting an engine bay fire is a special challenge because opening the hood introduces a huge rush of oxygen that both accelerates the blaze and creates a backdraft that is very dangerous. The longer discharge time of Element allows you to fog the engine bay through the grille or slightly cracked hood. This will create a cloud of containment in the bay and prevent an oxygen rush when opening the hood to finish fighting the blaze. This is an education piece we are working on and want to produce a video showing proper form when fighting and engine bay fire.

Rob, thanks a lot for so thoroughly responding.

RE an engine bay fire, will the fire itself create a draft that decisively pulls the Element 'fog' in toward the fire through the grill? I imagine I'd try to place a discharging Element on the bumper in front of the grill, or wedging it there somehow if the vehicle nose is going downhill. Would that be your recommendation?

If the hood were closed (not cracked) at the time of the fire, I can't imagine being able to play with my hood at all to crack it... even if heat protecting gloves (and presence of mind ;-) were avail, it's precious time lost and my grill-guard makes it cumbersome/slow.

If the hood were open, can you toss the Element into the engine bay or does it need to be held/placed somewhere in particular, relative to the fire source? If the Element (discharging) were to land right on the fire source, would that be great placement, or would the Element's functionality be compromised by the shell being burned up.

Depending on the size/location/type of fire in the interior of a van, one might deploy the Element and then drop/toss it inside the (20') vehicle and shut the doors. Is that sufficient? Does it need to be a certain distance from the fire source?

Thanks for your discount offer to the forum members and for taking the time to respond. I look forward to your future vids/usage instructions for various vehicle scenarios (practice/visualization makes perfect), including how/whether to toss a discarging Element toward a fire. I can imagine that "tossing" an Element toward a fire might be a likely approach if the heat is fierce, or the possibility of a big flare up/explosion is there, or just due to human freak-out.

Thank you!
anne