What may be a never ending conversion story…

[JWA]

Originally Posted by shadetreevanman

After further reflection I am just going to bite the bullet and order a remanufactured 4R75E transmission.

Searching online, so far I'm leaning towards Street Smart Transmissions, they get great reviews and their core charge / shipping are just the price I like, free, as long as I return the core in time. Their quote is $1780.00 for their updated remanfactured trans and torque Converter, and ships with 12 quarts of Pennzoil Platinum Synthetic Fluid. Haven't pulled the trigger yet, but will likely order it this week.

Before I'd go this route maybe post your wants on FTE's Transmission section---more than a few there have gone through renewing a transmission so might have something to share.

For me I prefer speaking with those who have actual experience with something like a new/rebuilt transmission---the online reviews are always subject to low credibility.

Also in SMB's forums in the Engines/Drivetrain section there might be good advice about this too.

I'm in full agreement just swapping the trans out---labor-wise you're not into the process all that much more than replacing just the converter. And as you say if that doesn't fix the problem you'll repeat all your hard work.

[shadetreevanman]

I haven’t been very motivated to work on the van this month of July. After the van broke down in Arizona back in June, maybe because the van broke down, a few days later I found out my blood pressure was consistently up in what they tell me is the stroke zone. After going to urgent care, I spent my first night in the hospital since birth 57 years ago. Perhaps because of this drama the van just didn’t seem that important. Happily, with the help of some medication, my BP is now under control. I wish the verdict on the van was just as rosy.

While the medical saga unfolded and I was admittedly distracted, I pulled the trans and ordered a remanufactured trans. I also ordered a new factory 6.0 Diesel trans cooler to replace the stock one in front of the radiator. I was surprised to see it looks identical to the cooler I took out. We ran trans flush through the cooler lines and the radiator cooler, then blew air through them, before reinstalling the trans.

The trans went back in last weekend with the help of a buddy that came over. After firing it up we, uh, had that same rod knocking sounding clunk it had before. If it walks like a duck... I might be a moron. I was told several times by several people the rod knocking sound wasn't a sound the trans would make.

You mean to tell me that rod knocking sounds indicate a rod is knocking? Who knew?

The buddy that was helping me reinstall the trans services fire trucks in real life, which are primarily Fords, and knows his way around a vehicle pretty well. He agreed the clunking “sounds” like its coming from the bellhousing area. But with a new flex plate, torque converter, and transmission, it is highly unlikely the same sounds are coming from them. I very well may have shipped a perfectly good trans back to the rebuilder … I blame my Blood Pressure woes… What I do know is that the first noticeable sign of trouble on our trip was the trans acting like it shifted into neutral, allowing the engine to rev suddenly, while running 80-85 in the fast lane on the freeway. And correct me if I'm wrong, but shifting into neutral isn't normal for a trans. Perhaps that free rev damaged the engine? Doesn’t really matter at this point I guess, I already bought and installed the remanufactured trans.

We let the engine run for a while Saturday. The idle hunted up and down, even dying on occasion. It will rev freely, but knocks worse while revving. Just to rule it out I plan to pull the exhaust and check the cat’s for broken loose chunks. I really don't think it's the cat's, just like I knew it wasn't just the trans, but I guess I'm mentally working myself up to the engine pull. The exhaust has to come off anyway. Once I get it out there’s a local rebuilder by me that enjoys a great reputation. I’ve rebuilt a few small block Chevy’s in my day, but don’t have the desire to tackle this one.

Meanwhile, in anticipation of a new engine/trans combo, I ordered 3 Auto Meter gauges, trans temp, water temp, and oil pressure. Auto Meter makes a pillar mount, 3-gauge pod for the earlier dash vans that slides over the factory pillar trim. I’m assuming it isn’t listed for my 2012 because mine has the handle on the pillar. I’m also assuming I can modify my pillar trim enough to fit this 3 pod trim, or switch to the earlier pillar. We’ll see when it gets here next week.

Anyway, calm and cool is the new motto.

[Cyrull]

Glad you are doing better Tim! Always import to do self care, van will also be waiting for you to wrench/adventure on.

[TomsBeast]

Glad you took care of the most important things first, your health.



Knocking: I wouldn't first suspect a trans failure free rev to cause a rod knock. For that to happen, you'd have to have created an oil starvation condition, or rod bolt stretch, a spun rod bearing (and ensuing rod knock).


I've ruined a few lower ends, and diagnosed a few. I've also diagnosed flywheels that had come loose, splines inside a dual mass flywheel (VW TDI) that knocked at idle, loose cam gears, too long of bolts used to hold the flywheel on, a cracked piston... The point is, I would keep my mind open for a while longer.



Taking a methodical approach, you want to rule out a bad rod (stretched bolt, or spun bearing) causing the noise. It would soooo suck to pull the engine, tear it down, only to find out it really is a loose spline in the trans, a bad torque converter, loose flex plate, something. It's seen it done many, many times, and am almost embarrassed to admit, I've participated a few times. With as difficult as pulling an engine from a van is, I'd spend 2 days of solid diagnosing before loosening an engine mount. Keeping it runable while doing so will help.



Rod bearings are steel, electroplated with indium, tin, lead, or a combination, only about .002"-.005" thick. Like chrome plating on a bumper, the soft bearing plated material is the first thing to sluff off, and starts the chain of events. The nice thing is it gets everywhere in the oiling system, leaving clues everywhere, too. Over reving can stretch or even break a rod bolt, that rod will knock. With the oiling hole now open, it won't resist oil flow, the oil pump can't keep up, so oil pressure goes way down at the same time, helping you diagnose this condition.



Check oil pressure before going forward. One way is to temporarily braze a fitting onto an old oil filter, let the gauge hang onto the ground, fire it up and see whatcha got. Rev the engine while watching the gauge. If knocking is at idle only, and oil pressure is great, let it warm up, oil pressure should go down slightly.



Draining the used engine oil into a very clean or new black plastic oil drain pan, looking for 'glitter' in the afternoon sunlight, is what I do. After draining the oil, the glitter settles at the bottom of the drain pan, you want to inspect that last 1/2 quart, as you empty the drain pan into your recycling container. Following that by cutting apart the oil filter and inspecting the paper, looking for non-magnetic bearing material in the folds. Those tow things are a good place to start. If it's a rod knocking, the rod bearing is most likely damaged, spun, or almost gone, leaving a trail of clues for you to find.



Follow that by removing the spark plugs, accessory belt, and working the crank back and forth 5deg with a breaker bar, and feeling, listening, for a clunk, knock, or looseness. You do this at several places along the 360deg rotation circle. Usually a knocking rod will reveal itself this way.


Good luck Tim, and remember, it's not death or disease, it's just a machine that's a little broken, and we can fix broken machines!

[shadetreevanman]

Thanks guys for the thoughts. Good advice on methodology. Tomorrow morning I plan on crawling under the van and getting started on your list Tomsbeast. I think at this point I can safely rule the trans/flexplate out.

Along with my new gauges I ordered a oil filter adapter to give me a place to mount the oil pressure sensor. Too bad it won't be delivered for over a week. Checking oil pressure should logically be done before draining oil. It would be too easy to just hook up the new gauge if the adapter was here already.

I like to think I usually logically and systematically evaluate the symptoms and physically inspect to try to come up with a diagnosis that explains everything discovered. I admit on this one I jumped the gun on the trans before evaluating all options. Maybe a little wishful thinking since the trans is not only less expensive than a rebuilt engine, it is easier to swap as well. I guess the good news is I have a fresh trans in the van now.

And a Public Service Announcement: My buddy tells me the Fire Department changes fluid and filter on trans every 20,000 miles on their fleet. Ford Fleet Maintenance Schedule recommends every 150,000 miles under normal usage, or every 30,000 miles when towing. Quite a variable when I tow only occasionally. But $80 in fluid and filter is cheaper than the $1700 this trans cost me. With the new trans I'll change the filter after the initial 200 miles, and then every 20,000 after that. For this vans usage, 20,000 miles is over 2 years.

[TomsBeast]

Originally Posted by shadetreevanman

...I admit on this one I jumped the gun on the trans before evaluating all options. Maybe a little wishful thinking..

No need to feel like you're alone in this, you made a reasonable choice, educated guess. I've done it... professional mechanics have done it (most will never admit it, because of both ego, and they'd have to eat the cost of the replacement parts + labor in the admission).


I'll PM you

[Twoxentrix]

Originally Posted by shadetreevanman

....Its a fun obsession

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thought I would realign your perspective by referencing a caption YOU used in one of your earliest posts in this thread - intended to rekindle your inspiration.

Continues to be interesting reading through your contributions, lot of creative ideas shared since you started your project, and I continue to look for the next post. Even though these Rigs can tax your sanity (and pocketbook) on occasion, IMO they provide considerably more enjoyment in return. Lot of great input from TomsBeast to help narrow down the search, hope one of them reveals the true issue.

[shadetreevanman]

Thanks TwoXentrix for the reminder. Well it's taken me a while to get back out on the driveway. It's been very distracting not knowing whats wrong with the van. I like to gather data and think through my options, but when I don't know whats wrong my old thinker starts running off the tracks. Fortunately post like TomsBeast get me back on track and focused. Using his methods I am confident we have a bad rod bearing. Now with a diagnosis I am moving forward. Spent about 4 hours today getting started ripping it apart. My wrenching history is small block Chevy's and Volkswagen's. This Ford seems pretty simple but that clutch fan removal had me youtubing it. My progress as I cleaned up this evening.


And I have decided to go with the Ford Remanufactured Engine instead of a local rebuilder. I found a local dealer that is asking $3333.45 for the long block. That's the best price I can find within 50 miles of me.

As I put the engine back in I'll be installing my new gauge pillar mount. This mount is from Autometer for the up to 2008 E-Series. I figure it will fit on my pillar after I take the grab handle off. Might have to tweak it slightly. I'll be painting it grey after I get it to fit. The only thing I haven't figured out is where to install the water temp sending unit. The aluminum manifold under the thermostat housing has a nice flat boss that I may be able to drill and tap while I have it out.


As I reinstall the engine I'll replace the serpentine belt and hoses. Debating replacing the clutch fan. It currently feels tight, but it does have 100K miles on it. Trying to avoid going crazy with the "while I'm in there" mentality.

[shadetreevanman]

This is the spot I was thinking might be a good place to drill and tap for the temp sending unit. Would be behind the alternator.

[JWA]

Originally Posted by shadetreevanman

This is the spot I was thinking might be a good place to drill and tap for the temp sending unit. Would be behind the alternator.
Attachment 28951

Yep---perfect place for another coolant temp sending unit. I did this same thing on a new Ford intake, there's plenty of beef in that boss to accept an 1/8" NPT fitting.

FWIW I'd used one of those adapters inserted into the upper radiator hose, cut to accept the added length of the actual adapter. It was cumbersome and I feared breaking the temp sender while doing regular maintenance.

Here's a Dorman replacement intake with existing temp sender threaded hole:




Stock Ford intake before drilling & tapping NPT hole in cross over:




Finished, ready for temp sender installation:



HTH