Window Cutout Tool

[JWA]

Originally Posted by FarmerFrederico

JWA - I've read you are the expert...so the medium sized window (second in my post with pics - what CRL calls a "traditional" t-slider) would probably leave me with the least headaches over several years if installed correctly?

I believe so FF, based upon my experience with this type window that have movable/hinged pieces.

[FarmerFrederico]

Welp - I'm no longer a cut a hole in your van and stick a window in it virgin anymore. I'm not done though...I think the butyl tape (3/8ths) I used is too thick and I can't get it to seat well. I've got some silicone based sealand adhesive too. Anyone know how thick a bead I should lay down? Butyl tape locally was only in 3/8ths but I now see 1/4 is available online.

Also - I was trying to be too precise and made my hole just a smidgen too small - required lots of extra time filing and working here and there to get the window in. Overall I think I've got a solid 3 hours in it - hoping I can get the butyl off tomorrow without too much hassle. I cut through both layers initially with the jig-saw, but then had to use my cut-off wheel on the inside to get the inner hole big enough for the inner trim. Upper right corner near driver's seat belt column was so tight I had to use hand shears and it didn't come out very clean but should hide easily enough. Overall I'll have saved about $400 and time invested will likely be the same in terms of driving the van to the installer and back over a few days.

Couple other rookie errors to go in the books too but I should be able to sort them out.

Thanks for any help!

[JWA]

Your butyl tape should be no more than 3/16" diameter---assuming the window frame fits the body fairly closely and the inner clamping ring is properly installed the 3/16" diameter is more than adequate.

If you're using something like silicone adhesive/sealer from a caulking gun a bead of 1/4" max is more than adequate too. Properly clean the body and window frame with a strong window cleaner, not a solvent like alcohol or MEK etc ect---those leave residue that can act as a barrier when evaporated or dry.

Apply the silicone to the body, carefully fit the window in place while a helper on the inside secures the clamp ring enough to hold everything in place. Immediately clean any silicone off the body that oozes out, alcohol etc could be used at this point.

Typically new windows come with a template or other instructions to make the initial cut out----those should be followed.

I can't stress enough how important it is to thoroughly protect or treat any bare metal edges created by cutting parts of the body away. If left bare in short time rust will form and begin eating its way through the metal becoming apparent only after it erupts from under the window frame flange. POR-15 is my recommendation because its formulated for automotive uses.

[FarmerFrederico]

Thanks, JWA! I'm going to go the silicone sealant/adhesive route because I can only find the 3M Butyl Round down to 1/4" and I'm afraid that will be too big too. Everything is already a tight fit so I think have the more "liquid" format will work better for me in my situation.

Now to get the window back off

[JWA]

Originally Posted by FarmerFrederico

Now to get the window back off

Try squirting a solvent like mineral spirits into the butyl tape joint, where the window frame fits into the body. This will loosen the butyl bond enough to allow a somewhat easy removal, no severe pulling etc to remove the entire frame.

A sharp knife could also be used, cutting away the butyl as the window is pushed outward, carefully to avoid scratching the body paint finish.

The advantage of a liquid sealer is its compressible where the butyl isn't.


HTH

[Viva]

Originally Posted by JWA

Properly clean the body and window frame with a strong window cleaner, not a solvent like alcohol or MEK etc ect---those leave residue that can act as a barrier when evaporated or dry.

JWA,

This caught my eye and I wonder if you would mind expanding on it a bit? My background is boat work, and we use denatured alcohol or acetone quite often, mineral spirits sometimes, and naptha occasionally, to prep an area (after any gross cleaning or sanding is accomplished). The only specific no-no I am aware of (presuming X solvent is not going to damage the substrate) is to not use alcohol when prepping for polyurethane as a sealant because it can inhibit the cure. I'm sure there is plenty I don't know though (and thus I want to find out!).

Could you speak a bit more to solvent vs. the cleaner? Also, what type of product is a "strong window cleaner"? Do you mean something ammonia based? Or are there any product names you can point me to? I'm typically prepping fiberglass, but sometimes painted (van) surfaces too. I really appreciate all your technical postings.

Thank you,
Viva

PS: I use butyl tape quite a bit in boat work, and the stuff I buy is grey, around 3/4" wide, and 1/8" thick. After having a hard time finding consistently good quality stuff these days (and running out of my ancient stash), I have been buying "bed-it" -- this is a butyl tape sold by a fellow boater who is a persnickety type (I say that in the best way). Good stuff - just like the old days you can stretch it out like pizza cheese without it breaking, and it stays pliable and sticky.

[JWA]

Viva while we've all used the typical solvents to degrease and/or clean surfaces prior to painting or adhere something; alcohol, MEK, acetone etc etc. When they're used properly they are effective and relatively cheap, usually easy to use without damaging most substrates. The potential for them leaving residue behind when left to dry or evaporate is my biggest concern.

The best solution if organic solvents are used is quickly wiping them away before they can evaporate.

For those who don't work with such chemicals frequently a mid-grade automotive refinishing solvent or "paint prep" would work best. Its a bit more costly but is specifically designed to NOT leave residue which makes sense because its the last step just before painting a vehicle. Any issues here would be disastrous in body shops etc.

Brand-wise I always default to 3M but talking with most body shop suppliers can get you something extremely close in effectiveness without the cost of 3M.

Glass cleaner: I use a product called Burco Windo-Glo which is one of the absolute best all-around multi-surface cleaners I've ever discovered. Mind you that's NOT hype---I swear I've used every known brand of window cleaner, both of the household and so-called professional products as well---nothing before has ever been so effective and "cheap" too.

It is extremely gentle on surfaces other than glass but is amazing on glass too. Accumulated road film is easily cleaned away even on big trucks. The gunk that forms on the inside of vehicle glass over time is no match for Windo-Glo.

Another huge benefit is its "no streak" formulation, something designed in that greatly resists the tendency of similar products to dry too quickly, leaving the residue behind we call glass streaks. My observing its action over time suggests alcohol is not a huge part of its make up. It does freeze solid, doesn't smell like alcohol and as mentioned doesn't evaporate away too quickly even on sun-warmed glass or other surfaces.

Its sold only through glass shops in packaging ranging from single 20 oz spray bottles up to 5 gallon bulk containers. I sell the 5 gallon "bag in a box" for $35---the same package I use, it lasts me a full year.

Burco could probably be located at local glass shops but I can't say how they'd go about selling it the general public. Burco the company is mostly hands off once the product is sold to warehouses, they don't sell direct even to those of us in the glass business.

BTW I am NOT affiliated with or derive benefit from Burco sales! I just happen to love any product this effective and cheap too---the best of all worlds.

Anyway hope some of this is helpful.

[Viva]

Originally Posted by JWA

The best solution if organic solvents are used is quickly wiping them away before they can evaporate.

Good info, thanks. Some of the time I'm using Interlux 202 Solvent Wash, which purposely "stays wet" so you can wipe away contaminants (it's meant to remove mold-release wax from fiberglass, which is still alive and well on 20+ year old boats). However, that's some strong stuff, and so for "just cleaning" I tend to use denatured alcohol or acetone, or sometimes mineral spirits. But... residue is a concern (I now know).

Originally Posted by JWA

For those who don't work with such chemicals frequently a mid-grade automotive refinishing solvent or "paint prep" would work best. Its a bit more costly but is specifically designed to NOT leave residue which makes sense because its the last step just before painting a vehicle. Any issues here would be disastrous in body shops etc.

Brand-wise I always default to 3M but talking with most body shop suppliers can get you something extremely close in effectiveness without the cost of 3M.

I'm a big 3M fan too, and don't mind a bit paying for good products - could you mention a 3M product name/number that fits in this category?

Also thanks for the Burco recommendation.

While I've got you on the horn here, and somewhat related, have you found anything that gets rid of silicone or its seemingly permanent residue? That's a huge bugaboo on boats (I don't let it anywhere near, but sometimes a PO has used it and so we have to deal with it) and as of yet, no-one I know of has found a really effective remedy, except for removing the top layer of boat (which you can do with gelcoat, sort of). I can tell you have a lot of knowledge and experience with these things, so I figured I would ask.

Thanks again, much appreciated,
Viva

[JWA]

Viva I can't give specific 3M numbers only because I don't use their products for this sort of thing in my glass biz. I'd instead refer anyone interested to contact a local body shop supply outfit or call 3M's help line---they're very helpful and knowledgeable too.

In the past I've used their Bug & Tar Remover---its great for those as well as very, very gentle on automotive painted surfaces.

An afterthought about alcohol and other organic solvents being used on fiberglass repair---came to me in a dream. Because adhesives/sealants like silicone or butyl stick to a surface with relatively easily broken bonds at the surface only residue from evaporation could be an issue. Fiberglass resins and hardeners are more of a "solvent welding" process whose bonds cannot be broken very easily if ever.

Silicone sealant/adhesive seemingly develops a stronger bond with a substrate over time---most of us have experienced this I'm sure. So far I've not found anything short of abrasives that will effectively and damage-free remove it after a few years. Naturally if a substrate is not hard and smooth (glass, freshly force cured auto paint) the bond seems to be even more tenacious and that much more difficult to remove after some time.

When I've encountered silicone residue I absolutely need to remove the 3M Bug & Tar Remover along with repeated "scrubbing" with a cloth or heavy duty paper towel eventually wears it away. This would be akin to an extremely fine grit abrasive action, affecting the silicone residue more so than the underlying finish or surface. IOW its mostly "elbow grease" that is the best remover?

[Viva]

Thanks for the additional detail!

I have a hate/hate relationship with silicone So, I just don't use it. However, sometimes it sneaks in anyway, due to original builder, previous owner, etc. So far I have always found something else that works as well or better but does not leave a horrible, basically-impossible-to-get-rid-of residue. But then I'm sure there are times when it's the thing to use in other industries/situations that I don't encounter.

I'm sorry you don't have a magic bullet for me, but then I kind of knew there wasn't one. But one can dream!

For plastics that say not to use anything but silicone, I have so far found butyl to work well and have not noticed any damaging of plastic/plasticizers yet (but I only do this on my own boat/vehicle, since it is perhaps a bit experimental).

Aside from the known alcohol/polyurethane-cure inhibiting, I hadn't thought of (wasn't aware of) any contamination from evaporated solvents, so it's good to know to be on the lookout - I really appreciate that info. My typical projects are either laying up fiberglass or bedding something to fiberglass (window/port, roof vent, other metal or plastic hardware). With the occasional bedding to painted metal thrown in (hoping that becomes more common if I find another van/SMB!).

I'm thinking either an E-350/Voyager top (so there would still be some fiberglass ) or maybe a Sprinter or Transit high top with a sort of "living room front/cargo back." So, less living room, more gear space. I do miss my previous SMB (RB 2WD PH with slightly modified RB-30 aisle layout).

Okay, I'll stop the hijack (although after window holes are cut out, they do have to be installed and bedded, so at least it was a related tangent!).

Thanks again,
Viva