Engine Mods for the V10 Ford what have you done

[carringb]

Originally Posted by mgmetalworks

Why the 6R140? Why not an Allison? People seem to think that the Allison is a weak trans but it is more misunderstood than anything. It is a great transmission with a long, proven history.

There's very little market for a 6R140 stand alone controller so it might be a while before someone puts in the effort to make a hack for it (I don't think it has been done yet...not much info about it online).

The gear ratios primarily. The 1st-2nd jump on the A-1000 is pretty big, but 2-3 are super close. The 1-2 jump in 4R100 is what bugs me the most. I'd be happy with a TorqueShift but if I'm going to swap transmission, I might as gain a 2nd overdrive so maybe it can partly pay for itself in fuel savings.

Allison:
1st - 3.10
2nd - 1.81
3rd - 1.41
4th - 1.00
5th - 0.71
6th - 0.61

The Ford has evenly space ratios, and a deeper 1st. Ford 6R140:
1 - 3.974
2 - 2.318
3 - 1.516
4 - 1.149
5 - 0.858
6 - 0.674

In fact, the jump on the Allison is even great that what I have now. The 4R100 goes from 2.71-->1.54 for the 1-2 shift.

Also it's already flanged for the NV271/273. Like the TorqueShit, and unlike the 4R100, the 6R140 uses its own TCM, so it should be be a matter of sending over the inputs it needs. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking. But, if you can figure out an easy way to make the Ally work in my van, I could probably be persuaded to go that route.

[carringb]

Originally Posted by Chance

Carringb, do you worry about a major failure like a broken frame? Unless you have upgraded that too, wouldn't the loads and towing you do fatigue the frame and other parts? Particularly with your high mileage.

I don't know the limits, but when I see that Ford uses heavier frames for E-350 vs E-250 vs E-150, it makes me think Ford engineers must consider the difference between 8600, 9000, and 9500 pound GVWR to be significant enough that it requires an upgrade.

I've seen a couple of broken frames, including one of my father's 4X4 pickup, and it's not something I'd like to risk. Granted, I tend to be cautious.

No. I looked at all the specs. The EBE350's have the same frame specs as the E450 14,050 GVWR cutaway. And just looking at the raw material specs, the vans are really overbuilt for what are. Ford is making some very worse-case assumptions for the aftermarket, like long wheelbase stretches and non-structural bodies, which put many times the stresses on the frames compared to out short wheelbase which effectively have a monocoque bolted on top.

Besides... I'm not sure I could put it through more than I have already. I've taken out a freeway guardrail with it and jumped the van more times than I can count. The last one wasn't intentional because the Forest service put a new water across the forest road I was taking at 50 MPH. That one split my differential carrier in half and bent my 20,000# rated Reunel bumper because the landing was to hard, and I had about 2,000 pounds on hitch weight. Frame is still fine.

Besides, the alternative to a large trailer would look something like this:

[mgmetalworks]

Mechanically speaking, the 6R140 is easier to fit to a V10 since it already mates to a V-10 in the application you mentioned. The Allison *might* have a slight size advantage for fitting in the van though with the shorter SAE #3 bell housing. Both are big transmissions... no doubt about that.

Don't underestimate the difficulty of finding out all of the inputs the trans controller needs and the outputs it sends to the engine controller. The 6R140 looks like a really awesome trans but if you can't find all the details about the controller I/Os, you'll have to reverse engineer everything yourself, not a trivial task... The advantage the Allison has in this regard is that there is a huge aftermarket following and a wealth of information about the trans already published. And...if you can get your hands on the manuals that are published by Allison about the trans controller, it actually gives you a lot of the information you need. I'm betting that Ford hasn't published even a fraction of what Allison has on the same topic. Allison has had to because of the number of applications and the number of OEMs using their trans. Ford really doesn't have to if they don't want to, not until the trans is used in other manufacturer's applications. I'd be interested in seeing the factory service manual for the 6R140 but from previous experience with Ford manuals, I bet there isn't much useful info to go by.

I'd worry most about tuning. How do you connect to the trans and adjust the calibration? (from a technical stand point, I know the fundamentals of how this is done but as far as I know, there isn't any DIY software out there to connect to and adjust a 6R140).

If there's enough interest in the 6R140 for trans swaps into older vans (or even newer vans), I'd be all for working on a stand alone trans controller solution. It wouldn't be easy but it isn't impossible. Considering how similar the Aisin AS69RC I/Os are to the Allison, I wouldn't be surprised if the Ford trans was also pretty similar. The controller it has already does a fine job, we just need to crack it open and make some changes to suit the application. How many van guys out there would even consider this swap? If that number is big enough, it might be worth a look.

[carringb]

Originally Posted by mgmetalworks

Don't underestimate the difficulty of finding out all of the inputs the trans controller needs and the outputs it sends to the engine controller. The 6R140 looks like a really awesome trans but if you can't find all the details about the controller I/Os, you'll have to reverse engineer everything yourself, not a trivial task...


If there's enough interest in the 6R140 for trans swaps into older vans (or even newer vans), I'd be all for working on a stand alone trans controller solution. It wouldn't be easy but it isn't impossible. Considering how similar the Aisin AS69RC I/Os are to the Allison, I wouldn't be surprised if the Ford trans was also pretty similar. The controller it has already does a fine job, we just need to crack it open and make some changes to suit the application. How many van guys out there would even consider this swap? If that number is big enough, it might be worth a look.

Yeah, I have no doubts it would be difficult. I'm kinda hoping I'd get lucky and somebody like PCS would come out with something.

Ultimately, I think it may come down which axle ratios I can find a good deal on. If I find a matched set with 4.30 gears, than moving a 6-speed would make the most sense, and give me deeper launch gear. If I end up with a 4.88 set, then adding a Gear Vendors to my existing transmission would probably work out better from a final-drive ratio standpoint.

[Chance]

carringb, the first gear ratios for these transmissions vary considerably, but the first-to-second shift ratio jumps are not that different. If the 1-2 large jump is what bothers you most about the 4R100 then a swap may not help much.

For me it would be more about the closer ratios at the top end, and being able to use a taller high-end gear. Or a smaller engine.

Allison:
1st - 3.10
2nd - 1.81
Jump = 1.71

Ford 6R140:
1st - 3.974
2nd - 2.318
Jump = 1.71

Ford 4R100:
1st - 2.71
2nd - 1.54
Jump = 1.76

[carringb]

Originally Posted by Chance

If the 1-2 large jump is what bothers you most about the 4R100 then a swap may not help much.

I actually hadn't compared the ratios and made an assumption on a quick glance, and though they were a bigger jump on the Ally.

When you compare final drive ratios and where that compares to the HP curve it matters. Its the gap between 40 (1st gear at 5400 RPM) and 50 MPH where the engine isn't making enough HP to get back up to speed if I get slowed down. This has only happened maybe 3 times though, so I'm probably way over-thinking a problem I encounter only once every 100,000 miles. But during those 3 times, it sure would have felt worth it! And... now that I'm not towing 95% of the time anymore, a double-OD sure would be nice.

[MrWicked]

we ended up getting this trailer

2003 28ft Carson Racer with from bath it needs alot of work and up grades but i got it for a real good price.... it is a heavy beast empty no batts no propane tanks no beds it weighed in at 8140

i have only pulled it with my truck.... maybe easter weeekend ill have the hitch set up for the van to pull....

[E350]

Originally Posted by carringb

I looking for larger axle because I can't find any Hub-cetnric 17" alloys with the 4.88" hub center. Lug-centric wheels always vibrate after a while once the lug-seats get chewed up. I'm at the point I need to replace the wheels again (I get about 140,000 out of a set) and I'd really like to move back to hub-cetric rims so they can be my last set. The wider track front track width and sharper wheel cut angle also appeals to me.

What about these?

DO YOU HAVE VIBRATION PROBLEMS ON YOUR NEWLY BALANCED AFTER MARKET WHEELS?

http://justforwheels.com/index.jsp?cat= ... ic&sub=how

[E350]

Originally Posted by carringb

I'm currently on the lookout for an F450 or F350-FatBoy front axle and also a matched Dana 80 rear. . . . The wider track front track width and sharper wheel cut angle also appeals to me.

carringb: Do you have a link to a spec sheet which shows the width of the various Ford axles, rear and 4x4 front?

[E350]

Originally Posted by mgmetalworks

Why the 6R140? . . . There's very little market for a 6R140 stand alone controller so it might be a while before someone puts in the effort to make a hack for it (I don't think it has been done yet...not much info about it online).

When my 4R100 goes out instead of putting a John Woods transmission, I would love to install a 6R140.

Maybe this is something you could work on in your spare time . . .