RV News RVBusiness 2021 Top 10 RVs of the Year, plus 56 additional debuts and must-see units → ×
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 09-22-2014, 12:44 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
E350's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Sacramento Delta, CA
Posts: 1,012
Heresy!

"Heresy is any provocative belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs. A heretic is a proponent of such claims or beliefs." Wikipedia

Yep, that what this thread is, and that's who I am.

We need a "Gas vs. Diesel" thread!

Not because the E series have any new diesel engines to talk about, but because we have some very knowledgeable members who haven't weighed in on the subject yet.

Ridge has a 6.0L diesel with 340K miles on it. A V10 gasser with 740K miles on it and a dually Cummins diesel with unknown miles. Don't we want to hear more from Ridge on this topic? He would never buy a 6.0L again but he still loves diesels. Why?

Don't we want to know if Ramsey (AgileOffroad) won his Four times Baja 1000 and his Four times Baja 500 in a diesel or gasser? And when he solo'ed the Baja 1000 to LaPaz/Cabo twice, did he chose a gasser or a diesel? (I bet you dollars to donuts they were all gassers!) And why?

But why then did MGMetalWorks chose to convert his van to a diesel instead of a gasser?

Ford has not put a diesel in a van for quite some time. And the topic could be thought to have been beaten to death.

Maybe, but not by the likes of these knowledgeable folks!

SMB Newbies are faced with spending thousands of dollars on a van. They want it to last a long time, and maybe long enough to later invest in a conversion to 4x4. Ford has the strongest chassis right? So isn't a Ford diesel the way to go? I mean diesel's are more durable than gassers right?

The newest of the 7.3L PSD's are 11 years old.

What would Chris Steuber (UjointOffroad) recommend now? Don't you want to know?

And don't we want to hear from other SMB owners who have owned their gas or diesel for a significant amount of time such that they can share their experiences?

I don't care if the moderators set the rules, limit the thread, or whatever, but we need a new "Gas vs. Diesel" thread.
__________________

__________________
2002 E350 ext.; 160K; 7.3L; 4R100 (w/4x4 deep pan & filter); 4x4 conv. w/2007 F250/F350 coil frnt axle (oppos. dual Bilstein press. shocks cured DW) diff chg from 3.55 to 3.73 (bad!); BW1356 t.c. (bad!); LT265/70R17/E Michelin LTX M/S2; Engel MT60 Combi Fridge-Freezer; 4 BP 380J pv panels; Auragen 5kw AC gen. in top alt. position; Webasto Dual-Top; Voyager top. 1995 5.8L EB Bronco, bone stock.
E350 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2014, 04:01 AM   #2
Member
 
Ridge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Apple Valley, CA
Posts: 93
Re: Heresy!

I do not have much experience with 7.3 Powerstrokes, so I'll leave that alone. My experiences are all highway miles while towing a 2 car enclosed trailer (let's say 11k pounds), and I'm writing this based on my experiences only.

Cummins:
6.7 - insane horsepower and torque, horrible fuel mileage. I've only driven a 6.7 for about 4,000 miles. 10mpg at 60-65mph.

5.9 - good power and torque and it wasn't uncommon to get 14mpg at 60-65mph, but I could bank on getting 12-13mpg average for long (10k miles) trips. I've logged at least 750k miles using these engines.

I used Mobil 1 and changed the oil, all filters, and trans fluid every 15k miles.

They are as dependable as the day is long and not much to maintain. It's a very simple motor and easy to work on because its a straight 6. As a business owner, this is the most economic motor I've used. I once averaged 850 miles per day for 23 straight days without a single motor issue, not even a hiccup!

Is it worth putting a Cummins into a van? That's up to you... but I think so.

Ford V10:
I bought my 1999 crew cab dually in 2001 for $20k. It had 28k miles on it. At first, I was hauling Harley Davidson bikes, 23 at a time (approx. 32k pounds total)! I had to go through Denver on my route to Chicago every other week. I'd spend 45 minutes climbing some of the mountains... at 10 miles per hour. I'm still amazed that trans lasted a month, much less 740k miles. It just went out!

Anyway, there were times when I'd get 5mpg all the way to Chicago, many times. Sometimes I could get 10mpg out of it, but I budget my trips at 8mpg. I kept buying diesels to save money, but always kept the V10 as a back up. It was/is so damn reliable. I did have to replace a motor after hitting a deer and overheating it a few times to get to a safe place. The "new" motor has 400k miles on it.

This was a very cheap truck to run down the road. It doesn't take a lot of Mobil 1 and the trans doesn't use expensive ATF.

As far as dependability, cost, and power... the V10 is a great motor. You'd have to drive a lot of miles to make up for the better mileage (and expense) of the 7.3. The 6.0, while towing, doesn't get too much better mpg than the V10 and (imo) isn't worth all the problems. Plus, you can get into a newer year model because the V10s are still available (I believe).

Powerstroke 6.0:
They are problematic, don't kid yourselves! Can you make it reliable? Yes, but it's expensive to do so.

I have a 2004 E350 club wagon Château with 340K miles on it. I bought it for $10,500 with 130k miles and immediately dumped another $4500 into it (to make it reliable), not to mention the $400 in extra sensors I had to carry. For my $15k investment, I got 210k miles out of it before it needed a $6600 "tune up".

My complaint list is long. It's a very difficult (see expensive) engine compartment to work on. So when you have it torn apart, you replace a lot of stuff just because you already spent a lot of time or money to access those parts. This is a complicated motor design that uses sensors, and there are a lot of them, especially compared to a V10 or a 7.3.

The 6.0 runs hot. It hits 235-240* on every significant hill. That kind of heat is hard on things. It has power to pull strong up mountains but if you can't keep it cool, you can't use the power.

This is the most finicky motor I've ever used. Because of this, it'll cost you more money. You must buy some kind of scanner to monitor your temps, differences in oil and water temps, volts to the computer, etc., etc. Another finicky fact, my motor would surge and stumble if I didn't add 8 ounces of Rev-X to every oil change. So, add $75 to your 12 quarts of Mobil 1. Don't forget to change out your coolant to some super expensive stuff, and add a coolant filter for free. Just kidding, that cost more money and time. The transmission is great but the ATF is special... specially expensive. If you think I'm exaggerating about all of that, then add the $80 fuel filters to the list too. Need to change the serpentine belt and don't have a few hours? Better whip out $300-$400 for a mechanic, depending on where you have to take it. And when you have one part fail, many times it takes out other expensive parts along the way.

I would never feel comfortable taking an SMB into the backcountry with a 6.0 without another vehicle with me or another way out, like a bike. I will say that I've heard the later engines were better, but face it, the 6.0 has a bad reputation and there's a damn good reason for it. My 6.0 rarely left me completely stranded, but compared to my other vehicles, it has been a rollercoaster ride.

So, the V10 is probably the best bang for your buck. If you plan to swap a Cummins diesel into a van, I'd start with a 1 ton van, and plan on spending $10k-$15k depending on how much work you do yourself. That's not much more than replacing a bad 6.0, so keep that in mind.

As far as gas vs. Diesel, without considering maintenance costs, the higher mpg of a diesel will save you approximately $7500 every 100k miles (if the diesel averages 4mpg better than the gasser). I calculated diesel at $.25 more than gas.

Like Earlybronco (kind of) said in another thread, a well maintained motor is the number one rule.

I hope I didn't piss anybody off... just trying to be helpful to those who are trying to decide on which motor to go with.
__________________

Ridge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2014, 09:06 AM   #3
Site Team
 
BroncoHauler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Southern New Mexico
Posts: 9,404
Re: Heresy!

Please do not START any gas vs. diesel threads.

Discuss to your hearts content, but the point is we already have plenty of gas vs diesel threads, and we don't want to forum littered with dozens of similar threads. The key word above is 'start'. This forum policy has been in place since 2008, when the subject, along with a corresponding new thread, seemed to be started every two months because a lot of people would rather start a new thread than use the Search function.

Please see the following, which lists a sampling of the threads that already exist. There are plenty more throughout the forum.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=1157


Herb
__________________
SMB-less as of 02/04/2012. Our savings account is richer, but our adventures are poorer.
BroncoHauler is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2014, 09:23 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Posts: 1,836
Re: Heresy!

90,000 miles before the 6.0 stranded me in a foreign town with no friends. Except my forum friends

I love diesels and especially the 6.0.
__________________
2005 E350 RB 6.0 PSD for extended fun
1989 Landcruiser FJ62 for local fun
2011 VW TDI Golf for hwy fun
JoeH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2014, 10:13 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Newberg, OR
Posts: 1,102
Re: Heresy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by E350
....

But why then did MGMetalWorks chose to convert his van to a diesel instead of a gasser?

....
Because I can...



Honestly though, I don't have any technical justification for the diesel conversion. I'm just doing what I'm doing because it is what I want and I enjoy challenging projects.
mgmetalworks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2014, 08:42 AM   #6
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Key West Fl, Port Isabel Tx
Posts: 44
Re: Heresy!

Just some 6.7 towing information
2008 ram 2500 4wd towing 34 ft SeaVee triple axle trlr about 12,000 lb load level roads near sea level at 65mph 7mpg, 60 mph 8-9 mpg
Plenty of power but stop for fuel every 200 miles
__________________
2002 SMB RB15 7.3PSD
Contempo top 2WD sold
2008 Ram CTD
2011 Ford Raptor
2002 Casita
yfarm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2014, 09:06 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
86Scotty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: TN
Posts: 8,733
Re: Heresy!

What do you get towing the Casita?
__________________
Currently vanless. Weird.

Real name Eric
Finally found a pic of my first camper,
a 1986 Serro Scotty
86Scotty is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2014, 09:38 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
E350's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Sacramento Delta, CA
Posts: 1,012
Re: Heresy!

yfarm: Thanks for posting. The Dodge 6.7 is intriguing to us 7.3L PSD owners.

Just a suggestion, when talking about mpg, since mpg is inversely correlated to rpm at least in the diesel world, it would be helpful if we all could also specify the gear ratio in the differential.*

Old school diesel F350's would often have 4.10 or even 4.30 differential gearing (to make up for the less powerful motor and few transmission gears) and the high engine rpms which resulted caused poor mpgs even when not towing.

In contrast the new Ford 6.7L diesel engine has so much power and the transmission has so many gears that the big decision is apparently whether to go 3.31 or 3.55 differential ratio:

http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f14 ... -a-285969/

The 3.31 differential gearing would slow the engine rpms down, with a resulting increase in mpgs.

So we really can't compare mpgs across different engines without also specifying differential gear ratios.

*Technically I guess it really should be differential ratio and tire diameter, because tire diameter affects the actual final drive ration to the pavement, but if you are like me and can't do math very well, specifying tire diameter is optional.

**Specifying engine rpm at 55 mph and 70 mph would also be helpful...
__________________
2002 E350 ext.; 160K; 7.3L; 4R100 (w/4x4 deep pan & filter); 4x4 conv. w/2007 F250/F350 coil frnt axle (oppos. dual Bilstein press. shocks cured DW) diff chg from 3.55 to 3.73 (bad!); BW1356 t.c. (bad!); LT265/70R17/E Michelin LTX M/S2; Engel MT60 Combi Fridge-Freezer; 4 BP 380J pv panels; Auragen 5kw AC gen. in top alt. position; Webasto Dual-Top; Voyager top. 1995 5.8L EB Bronco, bone stock.
E350 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2014, 02:29 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 171
Re: Heresy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeH
90,000 miles before the 6.0 stranded me in a foreign town with no friends. Except my forum friends

I love diesels and especially the 6.0.

Joe, what went wrong with your rig at 90k miles?

Any previous issues?
__________________
2005 SMB RB 50 4X4 w/ a 6.0 PSD
flyfisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2014, 09:21 PM   #10
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Key West Fl, Port Isabel Tx
Posts: 44
Re: Heresy!

Truck has 3.73 gears but tires were upsized from 265 70 17 to 285 70 17
Towing at 60 mph was around 24-2600 with load, unloaded 1800 rpm at 65 mph
Truck would get around 19-21 mpg at 70 mph unloaded as long as it was at least 75 degrees, 12-14 mpg at same speed when below zero
Towed the Casita from IL to Ouray at 65mph got 14-15 in Nebraska, west of Denver on I70 mileage went up to 17, never have understood that.
Raptor gets 13 towing at 70, 14 unloaded at 80
__________________

__________________
2002 SMB RB15 7.3PSD
Contempo top 2WD sold
2008 Ram CTD
2011 Ford Raptor
2002 Casita
yfarm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Sportsmobile SIP or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×