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Old 07-06-2018, 01:43 PM   #1
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Quad cooling fans

Stumbled on this ad below - No affiliation.

Any one tried this on here? Are the MPG gains real? I think the HP gains advertised is BS!

I do not have any cooling issues on my 6.0 even in AZ heat. But just curios if any one has experience with this and if the their are MPG gains indeed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-ECONOL...NSRwtN&vxp=mtr

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Old 07-06-2018, 02:22 PM   #2
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"...is good for 10-15% more miles to the gallon of gas along with freeing up 10-15 horsepower on the v8 and v10 and up to 20hp on the powerstrokes and it will reduce the stress placed on the engine and extend your water pump life."

With my existing factory setup, if I don't feel a decrease in power when the fan clutch kicks in, why would I expect to see a power increase with this system that takes the mechanical fan out of the equation? OK when the fan clutch is disengaged, I imagine there's still some amount of parasitic loss, but I can't see gaining "up to" 20HP back. But "up to" could mean I see a 0.1HP improvement and couldn't challenge the claim.

I can see the logic behind this, and there are reasons it will help, but it's the return on investment I question. In a race car this makes sense, a factory vehicle, I'm not so sure.

Oh, and "....Save 30lbs of dead weight off the front end..." not sure what comprises that 30lbs of that weight.


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Old 07-06-2018, 03:42 PM   #3
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I'll play the Devil's Advocate here, Herb;

I was talking to one of my engine builder/race car buds this morning... he routinely finds another 5%-10% more carnkshaft HP by only removing the fan belt (measured on a calibrated engine dynomometer) A-B-A testing. So I believe turning a big automotive fan does take measurable power. It's been a while since I had mine off, but it's a heavy son of a gun, I could see the Ford fan and fan clutch weighing 30lbs. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Oh, (tongue in cheek) let's not forget that my wallet will be lighter by $500 (If I carried $1's, saved for Saturday night at the strip club, that could be as much as 500grams...) so lets call it 31lbs That's on the positive side, in favor of the advertiser.

On the negative side, the new fans and shroud weigh something, maybe not 30lbs, but call it 10lbs. So net weight savings is only ~20lbs. 21lbs (0.2%) will make an infinitesimal difference in fuel economy on a 9000lb rig, you'd never see it in a calculation. I'm certain my handling will not noticeably improve, or my springs ever notice a difference. Let's not even think about negligible tire wear difference and savings. We're talkin' 'run the engine 2qts low and trans 1 qt low on oil, empty the washer bottle and empty the ashtray' kind of weight difference. I only mention it because its fun. 30A to run the new fans comes from somewhere, that would be the alternator charging more, and coasting less, to re-fill the battery (all things electrical, being equal). No free lunch as my old physics teacher used to preach. My educated guess? Generating 30A's 12vdc when the fans come on, causes less parasitic loss, than a mechanical fan. I can't prove it, other than to say the OEMs have all gone to electric fans, many to electric power steering pumps and assist to improve fuel economy. Could it be worth 1 mpg on a 12mpg example. It's possible on a hot day IMO

My conclusion is it's probably not BS, but I agree that I'd have to see data before parting with my $500

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoHauler View Post
"...is good for 10-15% more miles to the gallon of gas along with freeing up 10-15 horsepower on the v8 and v10 and up to 20hp on the powerstrokes and it will reduce the stress placed on the engine and extend your water pump life."

With my existing factory setup, if I don't feel a decrease in power when the fan clutch kicks in, why would I expect to see a power increase with this system that takes the mechanical fan out of the equation? OK when the fan clutch is disengaged, I imagine there's still some amount of parasitic loss, but I can't see gaining "up to" 20HP back. But "up to" could mean I see a 0.1HP improvement and couldn't challenge the claim.

I can see the logic behind this, and there are reasons it will help, but it's the return on investment I question. In a race car this makes sense, a factory vehicle, I'm not so sure.

Oh, and "....Save 30lbs of dead weight off the front end..." not sure what comprises that 30lbs of that weight.


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Old 07-06-2018, 09:03 PM   #4
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The stock cooling fan most definitely takes some serious power to spin. But you'd never feel unless 1) the fan is fully engaged, 2) you're already at WOT, 3) You're running at a high RPM where the fan causes even more drag. I think 20 HP is actually pretty conservative, at full engagement, high RPM operating.

That said.... Mine rarely needs to fully engage. It might do that on when it's 100+F degress and I keep the A/C basting while pulling a 7% grade at 4500 RPM. And even then it won't engage fully until I'm near the top. But when it does, it'll drop my speed a good 5 MPH. But.... It stays on for a while too, which makes for some pretty excellent engine braking.

As for fuel economy... compared to a functional fan clutch.... you won't see any gains. Those gains might be achievable on a cooling system with an always-on fan, like diesel pusher buses have. Or an older rig with no fan clutch. But considering how seldom our fans are fully engage, those gains would be negligible at best. Even efficiency gained by not turning the fan will be lost in charging the battery.

That all said.... electric fans cool better at idle. For somebody doing a lots of stop and go driving, A/C performance would probably be improved. And these probably move more air than a single electric fan, but I'd still be cautious towing very heavy trailers, in case the quad fans still don't move as much air as the stock fan.

FWIW - Ford installs an aux single electric fan on E-series with the "Gulf State Ambulance Package" to improve A/C performance at idle.
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Old 07-06-2018, 09:14 PM   #5
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I used to take off the p/s belt occasionally for more fun, way back with a Mazda I had.
I agree with more hp without the fan being spun and possibly less water pump wear n tear. But the price, ouch.
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Old 07-07-2018, 10:51 AM   #6
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The HP needed to spin the fan can be very surprising. On the Youtube series, Engine masters, they ran a lot of different aftermarket fans on dyno runs and discovered that it can take as many as 30hp to run the fan. They felt there was always a gain when switching to an electric fan set-up, but I question how many more horsepower it takes to power the alternators additional load. I do know that switching off my A/C when climbing a grade can be the difference between needing to downshift, or pulling the grade in the next higher gear. At a minimum it can mean having the ability to accelerate verses gradually loosing speed in the same gear.
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Old 07-07-2018, 02:39 PM   #7
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About a hundred years ago when I was actively car racing I recall picking my car up from the tuner and him letting me know that pulling the alternator was good for 7hp on the dyno. It's amazing the parasitic drain of all the stuff strapped to the front of an engine.
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Old 07-07-2018, 05:41 PM   #8
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Electric fans add up to 20hp
Combined with my tune download at 50hp
Paired with the ebay resistor I added at the MAF sensor at 75hp
K&N filter adds 15hp

My stock 2010 5.4L should be cranking 415+hp now with absolutely NO physical internal changes! LOL

FWIW, car manufacturer's are not leaving HP out of their vehicles. HP sells vehicles and attracts people to their product. Fuel economy sells fleet vehicles.
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Old 07-07-2018, 06:33 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winmag4582001 View Post
FWIW, car manufacturer's are not leaving HP out of their vehicles. HP sells vehicles and attracts people to their product. Fuel economy sells fleet vehicles.
Sorry....I work directly for an automotive OEM (and for one before that) for 20 years now....and automotive manufacturers ABSOLUTELY "leave horsepower on the table" all the time.

Every.
Single.
Engine.

And that applies to every. single. manufacturer. , as well.

Why? Two reasons.
1) Emissions requirements
and
2) Engine longevity / warranty criteria.

Ever wonder why the same engine (in the same car!) carries significantly different horsepower and torque specs when sold in different parts of the world? That's largely emission requirement driven.

But what goes on "behind the scenes" when an engine is in final test/tune calibration with the a factory engineers is HUGELY impacted by the tune's calculated effect on projected durability/longevity of the engine. Lengthy factory warranties sell cars as much (or more so!) as horsepower and torque numbers do....as well as projected cost analysis for the lifetime maintenance costs of a vehicle's drivetrain. So an engine that makes 15-20% more horsepower, but has increased wear/tear due to increased internal heat (leaner air/fuel ratios, advanced timing) and accelerated driveline wear/rear....this is not viewed as any kind of "win" for the OEM.

Increased horsepower.....at the expense of a higher occurrence of warranty repair costs and a reputation for less-than-number-one reliability/durability will quickly ruin any bragging rights of a few more ponies from the same engine. Durability is a number one goal for OEM and owners alike! All you have to do is pay attention to how many TV commercials claim to have "the longest lasting trucks on the road" --- it's just as many commercials as the "best in class horsepower/torque" commercials....but you have to understand, the SAME struggles with optimizing the same laws of engine physics/thermodynamics....and balancing those against the same physical laws of engine metallurgy/reliable operating windows of stress/heat --- these are going on at every single company.

More power? Sure, no problem!
But at what cost.

Long and short: OEM's play it very conservative with their engine tuning.....and so the aftermarket has a LOT of "margin potential" to unlock in most any engine, should the tuner (and owner) be OK with the reality of a higher probability of a shortened service life for said engine. (And/or the likelihood of failing smog/emission checks.)

The only rare exceptions might be a ultra-limited-edition track-special Corvette (or something like the Dodge Challenger Demon) which are tuned/specifically intended for race-only applications. But even those carry factory warranties of some sort, so the engine still isn't tuned to its full power potential.

Okay.....off the soap box.
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