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Old 05-10-2014, 11:48 AM   #11
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Re: Say Goodbye to Chip Tuning Open CAN Bus Going Away

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWA
......cut.....

A good tuning program shouldn't introduce an excessive fuel charge and have it not burned. That's literally burning money without any benefit, potentially damaging to the engine.

.....cut......
What's a good tune? I'm curious because if they accomplish much without too many compromises it would seem Ford engineers would include them in order to sell more vehicles.

I suppose cost could be a factor but even then they should cost less as mass produced options.
Na. Ford wants to continue to sell you cars. They aren't going to give you all they've got. Ever! Those engineers know how to protect their jobs. Planned obsolescence comes to mind.
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Old 05-10-2014, 12:21 PM   #12
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Re: Say Goodbye to Chip Tuning Open CAN Bus Going Away

One more comment from a peanut in the gallery here.

In my experience, innovation nearly always comes from creators.

And creators for the most part, are not professionals, they are amateurs.

An amateur in the original Greek sense, is someone who does something for the love of doing it. (In contrast to a professional who does the thing for money.)

Personally, I would expect innovation to an eleven year old engine or suspension to come from someone like a mgmetalworks, a UJoint, or a BajaSportsMobile rather than a currently employed salaried Ford engineer.

Salute to you creators out there!

P.S. I have said it before and I will say it again, in America we traditionally worshipped the creator. (It is enshrined in the patent and copyright protection found in Article 1, section 8, clause 8 of our Constitution.)

Not a top down compliance demanding oppressive god. IMO, Everytime we get a chance to vote, we need to respect, honor and protect our creators... at all costs from, and even at the expense of, other cultures and even our governments.
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Old 05-10-2014, 12:34 PM   #13
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Re: Say Goodbye to Chip Tuning Open CAN Bus Going Away

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Originally Posted by 86Scotty
Na. Ford wants to continue to sell you cars. They aren't going to give you all they've got. Ever! Those engineers know how to protect their jobs. Planned obsolescence comes to mind.
While a popular opinion, I don't see how that can work in the competitive environment of capitalism. If Ford doesn't give you the best value available then Chevy will, and so on.

And the same competitive environment exist within engineering departments and or suppliers of technology. Everyone is competing to be best to get ahead, or for survival.
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Old 05-10-2014, 12:55 PM   #14
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Re: Say Goodbye to Chip Tuning Open CAN Bus Going Away

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Originally Posted by E350
.....cut.....

Personally, I would expect innovation to an eleven year old engine or suspension to come from someone like a mgmetalworks, a UJoint, or a BajaSportsMobile rather than a currently employed salaried Ford engineer.

...cut......
Perhaps, but first ask yourself if professional engineers would spend much time upgrading an engine that is technologically obsolete, and about 3 engine generations back. If they kept working on old stuff they would undoubtedly keep making improvements.

What I consider innovation is what leads to smaller, more powerful, more fuel efficient, and quieter engines. Whether by Ford, Chevy, or Cummins, or their suppliers that develop new technologies, I expect there are very few amateurs involved.

Just a different way of looking at what innovation is. Neither one of us is right or wrong, we just seem to have different opinions on what it is that needs improvement.
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Old 05-10-2014, 01:29 PM   #15
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Re: Say Goodbye to Chip Tuning Open CAN Bus Going Away

Chance: "If they kept working on old stuff they would undoubtedly keep making improvements." You just answered your question to JWA above.

Please don't misunderstand my statement below, because I believe you have much more knowledge and experience to contribute to this forum than I ever will.

But I don't believe in the myth of scarcity, which I believe currently plagues our country.

So my conception of innovation is not directed towards efficiency.

It is directed towards discovery.
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Old 05-10-2014, 01:40 PM   #16
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Re: Say Goodbye to Chip Tuning Open CAN Bus Going Away

Just some of what the aftermarket has brought:

improved over stock air filtration
improved over stock fuel filtration
improved over stock oil filtration
improved over stock coolant filtration
improved over stock EGR coolers
improved over stock oil coolers
improved over stock Limited Slip Differentials
improved over stock axles
improved over stock shocks
improved over stock high pressure oil pumps
improved over stock transmission valve bodies
improved over stock transmissions
improved over stock injectors
improved over stock cylinder heads
improved over stock pistons
improved over stock carbs

Can't see why after market couldn't product improved over stock chip tuning


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Old 05-10-2014, 04:04 PM   #17
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Re: Say Goodbye to Chip Tuning Open CAN Bus Going Away

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Originally Posted by E350
Chance: "If they kept working on old stuff they would undoubtedly keep making improvements." You just answered your question to JWA above.

Please don't misunderstand my statement below, because I believe you have much more knowledge and experience to contribute to this forum than I ever will.

But I don't believe in the myth of scarcity, which I believe currently plagues our country.

So my conception of innovation is not directed towards efficiency.

It is directed towards discovery.
I don't claim to have any knowledge or expertise, just "opinions" like everyone else. What I could not disagree more with is your assumption that most innovation comes from amateurs instead of professionals because they somehow have more passion just because they don't get paid for their work. And by the way, do you not think many "amateurs" don't end up making a living from their work? Would that not then make them a professional?

For the record I'm neither a complete amateur nor professional in this and many other technical fields so I like to think I can be objective. Yes, I know the patent records are full of innovations by amateurs. Most didn't or can't work right because they were flawed to start with, but that's not what I have a difference of opinion with you on. It's really more about people and their ability to create. And about whether passion is limited to amateurs as you seem to imply.

Of course the best Ford engineers aren't going to be allowed to work on old 11-year-old obsolete engines when they can be working on the next generation that we won't see for a decade. But do you think that just because a brilliant 25-year-old mechanical engineer works for Ford that he doesn't have passion for engines, or anything else associated with vehicles?

And while we are at it, I know many think the level of technology discussed on forums like this one is advanced and complex, but by comparison to other fields it doesn't compare at all. That's just another opinion.

I get that tuning an engine is hard, and converting a van to a camper is tough, and so on. But in my experience, the kind of innovation and brain power that it takes to design, fabricate, and operate a chemical plant so that it doesn't blow up every single day, for example, is off the charts by comparison. And that level of "paid" work is nothing compared to the "paid" guys who design and send rockets to land on Mars and send pictures back. Those guys are professional also.

Bottom line is I can never agree with your take on amateur versus professional being creators and having a market on passion. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E350
One more comment from a peanut in the gallery here.

In my experience, innovation nearly always comes from creators.

And creators for the most part, are not professionals, they are amateurs.


An amateur in the original Greek sense, is someone who does something for the love of doing it. (In contrast to a professional who does the thing for money.)

Personally, I would expect innovation to an eleven year old engine or suspension to come from someone like a mgmetalworks, a UJoint, or a BajaSportsMobile rather than a currently employed salaried Ford engineer.

....cut......
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Old 05-10-2014, 04:40 PM   #18
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Re: Say Goodbye to Chip Tuning Open CAN Bus Going Away

It's a vision thing...

Efficiency results from the narrow perspective of the professional.

Discovery results from the unfettered vision of the amateur.

Yes, I accept your proposal that we agree to disagree.

But I am disappointed that the "public-private partnership" of the governments and automakers are trying to stifle innovation by making the Open CAN Bus go away.

Pretty soon we will all have to buy everything (insert: automobiles, houses, health insurance, etc.) from government approved sources rather than designing or building our own.

It's a freedom thing...
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Old 05-10-2014, 04:48 PM   #19
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Re: Say Goodbye to Chip Tuning Open CAN Bus Going Away

Quote:
Originally Posted by E350
...Pretty soon we will all have to buy everything (insert: automobiles, houses, health insurance, etc.) from government approved sources rather than designing or building our own.

It's a freedom thing...

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Old 05-10-2014, 05:02 PM   #20
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Re: Say Goodbye to Chip Tuning Open CAN Bus Going Away

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWA
......cut.....

A good tuning program shouldn't introduce an excessive fuel charge and have it not burned. That's literally burning money without any benefit, potentially damaging to the engine.

.....cut......
What's a good tune? I'm curious because if they accomplish much without too many compromises it would seem Ford engineers would include them in order to sell more vehicles.

I suppose cost could be a factor but even then they should cost less as mass produced options.
Anything can be made better. The profit margin likely isn't there for the manuf but is for an aftermarket company.
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