The Oil Thread -A Cationary Tale?

[deminimis]

Discussions about oil go about as smoothly as discussing politics and religion. So, with that, if your feelers are easily hurt, or you are absolutely sure your position is the only correct position, then, perhaps, this is not the thread for you. We've touched on this in various other threads, but perhaps its time for a single thread for information.

So, as you know, I've spent a good $2k+ on fixing oil-related injection problems with my 7.3. Its now fixed. I'm not a mechanic by trade, just a hobbiest. I'm not a person peddling my oil-related wares, so no vested interest. I have two years of engine mechanic training (non-diesel, mind you) and I've been wrenching for myself for nearly thirty years, but never professionally (except a little work (non-diesel) at Ford in college). Thus, I'm no expert and I am relying on personal experience and the experience of others that don't have a dog in the fight. That's key as I've read enough hype from the oil peddlers to last a lifetime, so not interested in hearing the company line again. I'm not going to bring up shear this and equal sized molecule that as if you want to get that technical, the info is out there in unbiased form if you look for it. With that, let's talk about this 800 pound gorilla in the room.

From the countless threads and other information I can find (including several first-hand discussions with certified diesel and diesel-specific mechanics), extended oil change intervals promoted by some manufacturers is (IT APPEARS) largely hype. No big surprise as that horse has been beat to death on other forums. The oil's props may be ok, in fact the oil may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but the filters aren't cleaning the oil enough to extend the service intervals out so far. What I've gleaned and been advised, when it comes to a Ford PSD, the extended change intervals can cause serious problems with our system. Now, from what I've learned through others is that the bypass filter system offered by some mfrs IS a good thing and works well, just not as well as claimed when it comes to the hype surrounding the extended change intervals.

The PO of my Sporty largely followed an oil mfr's change intervals (actually changed it more frequently, I understand). However, I wasn't there, so I can't bet my life on it. Now, in the 20k plus miles I've have the Sporty, I've done two full changes and additionally two full flow filter/top off changes (one filter change included a new bypass filter even). My oil is black as black at only 4,000 miles since the prior complete change and, as stated above, I'm out over $2k in oil-related repairs. So...

I'm pulling my dual remote/bypass filter system for a while. I am switching to tried and true Rotella dino at less than half the price of the various synthetics out there. I'm going to do a quick change program until I get my engine cleaned out (complete changes at 2,000 or less until oil is and remains relatively clear). Even with prior complete changes using the syn/bypass system, my oil was immediately black with soot. Thus, that was in part why I've changed my oil so much so far. Now, if wondering, I didn't suck the 3/4 quart of oil out of the HPOP during prior changes, but that's such a small amount, it shouldn't turn the 20 more/less quarts immediately black after an oil change and that's what was happening. In other words, there's too much soot in my motor and it is there, reportedly, because of the extended change intervals of the past.

Now, if you go out there and read this and that, you'll find as many opinions out there as there are stars in the sky. Remember, I'm not peddling any wares, just talking and, to a lesser degree, using my rig's history as a cautionary tale. If you do the research, you may find that $20-25/gall syn diesel oil is a great thing if you are participating in extended oil change intervals. However, again, from what I've learned, extended changes (certainly at the ridiculous intervals hyped by one oil/filter mfr) are not a good thing for PSDs.

So, if you decide that extended change intervals are not a good thing (its up to you to decide, I'm not suggesting either), then shelling out $25/gal for syn as opposed to $10/gal for dino (Rotella, Delo, etc.) makes little sense. Sure, I think there is little doubt that a syn oil outlasts a dino oil, but again, if you aren't doing the extended change intervals, then the extra money spent on syn is largely wasted because you don't see the syn benefits during normal change intervals that set it apart from dino (or justify the cost). Real world, non-biased experiences is something you might consider when making a decision. For example, I live in a farming community. Find me something that works in a more extreme long-term environment than a farmer's tractor or pickup, and well, hell, there really isn't much. I talk to the farmers and talk to the mechanics that service these extreme use rigs. I can't find a single one locally that thinks syn is the way to go on the farm (and its not just a cost issue). These folks all use dino (generally Shell Rotella) and have done so for many, many years, with great results. The reason is dirty oil is dirty oil. It needs to go. Clear as mud (or should I say my syn oil)? Also, talk with truckers (not dealing with the dust the farmers are) and you may still find the same response: Dino, not syn, and the best practice is regular change intervals, not magic bullet extended change intervals.

So, to recap, I've read the hype and the responses from oil peddlers. For me, the real world experience shows that not only is the cost of these products twice the cost of dino, with no noticeable improvement or benefit if not extending change intervals, but there can be a serious and expensive downside if you extend change intervals. Make you own decision. Check diesel and oil forums. There is enough info out there to make your eyes glaze over. Talk with diesel mechanics that don't promote a syn line to get what I suspect is less biased response.

What is my lube future? Well, like I said, I'm removing my bypass system for a while and running Shell Rottella or Chevron Delo, along with a Motorcraft filter (or Wix equivelent), during a series of quick oil changes until I get my oil is clean and its running clean. Once I get my motor cleaned out, then I'm going to see how Rotella and a stock filter setup works for a couple 3-4k change intervals. If the oil remains relatively clean, then that's what I'll stick with. If the oil gets dirty to the point I'm concerned during a 3-4k mile interval, then I'll go back to the remote dual/bypass filters from Amway, er, I mean...., well, you know who. If you can get past the hype, from what I can find, the dual/bypass system is a very good system, its just the extended change interval (and thus, the need for syn oil) that may not ring true. Even so, I have seen zero benefit from either the syn oil or the bypass system as evidenced by the black gold in my motor despite my efforts and my considerably lighter wallet. I hope dino and a stock filter does the trick. We'll see. If not, I'll probably end up running dino and the dual filter system.

Lots of info out there, so perhaps you'll want to go out and see what you can find.

[jage]

I'm getting this bound at Kinko's for later reading....


(Seriously good stuff, thanks for posting. Don't ever believe the previous owner changed the oil...)

[deminimis]

I'd normally agree re taking a Po's claims, but this PO lost the van back to the finance co. He had nothing to hide or gain by giving me the full 411 on the van. He told me about the good as well as the bad. Also, the copper drain plug washer was plum wore out from oil drains.

Just changed oil tonight to dino. I'm using up a new left over amsoil full flow filter and since I only have 4k miles on that $40 bypass, I pulled it, drained it, flushed it with fresh oil a couple of times, filled it and reinstalled it. Since I'm going to change all out again within the week, figured I'd do this first flush with the dual setup still attached.

[Stumpalump]

I have a tip top secret way to talk directly to the oil companys oil enginerring labs. It's so secret that I can't post it on the internet but if you send me a PM I'll let you in on it. No kidding but this is the deal on oil:
The evil goverment determined that catalitic converters were getting weak at 100K plus milage and past warrenty. The cause was a anti wear component called ZDDP. They demanded that the levels of ZDDP be phased way down and the diesel oils were the last oils required to reduce the levels of ZDDP. ZDDP was the majic but todays roller cam motors were thought to not need it and they don't need it as bad as flat tappet cam engines of years back.
What is ZDDP? It's some kind of zink phosphate stuff that has the ability to mix with hot spots (500 degrees) like bearings and convert the metal to a very hard alloy. This hard alloy lasts a long time. We don't have flat tappet cams any more but engines still benifit from the ZDDP in the other hard working places like bearings. Too bad it's almost all gone but todays oil still has some in it. The problem is it gets used up fast and then it's gone. For years thats what STP was made of and it worked as advertised. Today your choice is too change your oil more often. Rotella is one of the good ones but the best oil, and remember I talked to oil engineers, the best to run in my climate of Colorado is Mobil One 15w50 year round but only in the Extended Performace labeled bottles. Mobil One Extended Performance only in the 15W50 rating. Only in the Artic did the say to dilute the 15w50 extended performance with a quart or 2 max of thinner turbo rated oil. Thats the best and is what to buy for any engine below the artic. Mobil One 15w50 Extended Performance. They get away with a higher level of ZDDP because it's sold to stay in your engine longer so overall levels of ZDDP are the same over time. Trick is to change it at a normal interval.
Still stuck on using a diesel oil? Then use Rotella synthetic, Mobil One diesel oil or Delo is the best dino oil but change them all at 3K. Royal purple and all bets are off. Amsoil I don't know because they would not talk but I bet thats some good stuff also. Just stick to Mobil One because you can buy it any place that sells oil. Did I say Extended Performance 15w50 only? I can say it again but do what you want as long as you change it often. The little ZDDP thats in most all oils gets used up to fast and then your metal on metal instead of hard alloy on hard alloy. Good luck!

[deminimis]

A complete oil change using Rotella or Delo 400 LE, with a Motorcraft filter (US made), is approx $50 if DIY. That's not bad. Just the bypass filter with the other system is $40 and not available at your local Wal-Mart.

[saline]

Well maybe I should switch to Mobile 1 in the SMB. I've used Mobile 1 synthetic in my Nissan religiously since the first oil change. Not sure if it has made a difference but it has run like a top for 147,000 miles so far.
The previous owner of our SMB had Ford do all the oil changes since purchased. Not sure if that is good or not. I'm coming up on 30,000 miles and time for an oil change.

[John and Dana]

Hey guys, lots of great information here. Deminimis this is my first diesel vehicle and at 2K miles on the original manufacturers oil it was black as tar. After routing the oil lines correctly to my bypass filters and changing with the u-know who brand of synthetic oil it was still black as tar after 2K miles. I do however have the 6.0L which is a much different engine than yours.

My oil experience/preference, I run Mobile 1 10w-30 in my other vehicle and change at 5K. In my Jeep after 5k it is still quite clean and I have 212K miles on it and it still runs like new and doesn't leak/burn any oil. My Jeep also has the straight 6 engine which is about as bullet proof as engines come.

John

[Ford_6L_E350]

I wouldn't worry aboutg the black oil. The black is basically soot, microscopic particles of carbon, under 1 micron in size. Several years ago my company ran a test of particle size vs. wear. For our test conditions, particles under 2 microns had no affect on wear - the oil film was that thick.

At least for the 6.0, International (remember, they make the engines) suggests a 10,000 mile oil change interval. Since I don't drive short distances, and always run the van every 7-10 days, I feel safe with 7500 mile oil changes. My oil turns black soon after a change - as do most diesels,Ijust don't worry about it.

Mike

[Steve_382]

We had a 2005 Jeep Liberty with a 2.8L turbo diesel and ran Mobil 1 in it for 70,000 miles until we sold it. The oil always turned really black in short order. Must be the nature of the diesel beast. I also have a 1990 Chevy van with almost 300,000 miles on it that we bought new. I used Slick 50 about every 20 to 25k miles. It still only uses about a quart between changes.

[deminimis]

I had assumed the black oil in my van was to be expected, but according to the diesel mech, no. It had way too much soot (again, this after only 4k miles and a one gallon top-off because of a leak) and the levels of soot were not benign. The smoking gun, it appears, was the failed oil-driven injection components. IPR valves are a common casualty of the extended change intervals, according to the mech. If you have a stealership change your IPR and ICP sensor, the bill reportedly runs $1200. I don't care how good your math is, but a needless $1200 bill doesn't pencil out when it comes to the savings with extended change intervals. Again, according to the mech and the evidence before him, the extended service intervals were not addressing the build up of soot in the system adequately and the battle against soot was a loosing battle. Anyway, my oil is cleaning up nicely now. I don't expect it to be clean like a gas car or motorcycle as there will always be soot in a Powersmoke's oil it seems, just need it to not be so overwhelming. I do not wish to revisit the HPOP/IPR/ICP issue on this vehicle again.

I really like the idea of a bypass filter. However, I really don't like the idea of paying $40 for a bypass filter if doing frequent oil changes. After doing some snooping around, I found Perma-Cool bypass filters (2 micros like Amsoil's bypass filter) for $15 through Jegs. Now, these are physically smaller than Amsoil filters, but if wanting to do more frequent changes, it will save you some $. Its a different sized hole than the 1" Amsoil bypass filters, so the Amsoil remote won't work for these. You'd have to buy the Perma-Cool remote mount which is pretty cheap (Jegs or Summit Racing). Its a dual system and IIRC I think you can get it with the standard PH sizes if so wanted (I think the full flow is available in 3/4" or 13/16" -Anyway, check it out for yourself). If going with extended change intervals, then I don't think you'll save much with the Perma Cool system as the much larger Amsoil filter should, I would think, outlast the Perma Cool filter as its approx twice the size. For me, I'm not gong to mess with it, so my research stopped there. If interested, then you might want to dig a little deeper. Also, you old timmers know about Frantz filters. Yup, the filter that uses a roll of toilet paper as the filtering medium. Those that have them swear by them. We had one (not sure if it was Frantz) on our old 1932 Ford tractor (gas). Same motor and running like a champ when sold a couple-three years back. My dad's '87 Ford diesel has never had an oil-related problem and he does nothing more than the cheapest oil and filter changes in that beat up old Texas ranch pickup. For me, I'm just going to stick with a single Motorcraft filter and frequent oil changes for now.

Back to oil, I keep firing up the radio and asking truckers what they are running in their rigs (trucks and personal) and again, the responses I get indicate the majority are running non synthetics (Rotella T, Delo 400, Delvac 1300, etc.). These guys should know better than a hobbiest like me. On a Dodge diesel forum the question was asked and the number 1 response was Rotella with a Fleetguard filter (yes, its a Cummins vs. International). Whatever oil you use, it needs to be CJ-4 for the Powersmoke, that much I know. Other than that, I don't know squat, so take what I say with a grain of salt.