Can I just remove the passenger seat?

[Viva]

If I'm over-thinking it, great. Because I just want to be able to remove the passenger seat and still have my driver's side airbag be operational, plus not have any added dangerous projectile (such as a pretensioner that is going to fire and cause problem. I'll be thrilled if it's as easy as you say (so please don't just not come back to the thread!). But maybe you could confirm something for me...

Last year when my airbag light came on after flashing a code, and before I figured out how easy it would be to fix it, I tried to determine if having the airbag light solidly on on the dash meant that the whole system was non-operational. Basically my question was "If I can't get this fixed for three weeks, am I driving around with no airbag during that time." From what I read, the answer was "Yes, any time the airbag is solidly lit up, the whole system is non-functional."

In that case, I was easily able to figure out the trouble code and put it all back together (ironically the trouble was that the passenger seat airbag plug was slightly loose).

So anyway, it seemed to me that if I remove the passenger seat the airbag light will be on, and if the airbag light is on the system is non-functional (which would include my driver's side airbag. I know maybe I sound stupid now, but the more I read the more confused I get. So is the above true or false, is what I can't figure out. i.e. if I remove the passenger seat, won't the airbag light be on, and if the airbag light is on, won't my driver's side airbag be non-operational. If someone can help me to understand this, I will be eternally grateful.

(The more reading I do on it, the more confused I get, but I'm not actually stupid in real life, honest!).

(For example, the pre-tensioner is supposedly armed and dangerous (pyrotechnic), but then it is not supposed to fire if the seatbelt is not fastened (like when there is no passenger), so is it in fact dangerous if the seatbelt is not fastened? This is where I get confused.)

Thanks if you do come back and reply,
Viva

[Viva]

Okay, I was inspired to read the document carringb linked to again, and I think a light bulb went on (in my head, not on the dashboard

That line about "without the optional passenger airbag" had me confused, and I thought maybe it was just poorly worded, but I think I know what it means now. What I think is that all vehicles have airbags (in other words, having one is not optional). Some vehicles have optional airbags (meaning that you can turn them off) and other vehicles (such as ours) have airbags that have to be on all the time, sorry, you have no choice. So that is what "optional" means, and our (my vintage) vans don't have that option.

SO, according to appendix III, one can get that other crash sensor, put in in and then the passenger airbag IS optional. I was confused because when I Googled that replacement sensor, it came up as a run of the mill sensor that people were buying to replace their run of the mill sensor. But what I now think is that probably on newer vans, the airbag IS optional in the sense that you can probably turn it off (am I right, anyone with a newer van?). Like say if you have a baby in a seat there. So the reason that part number is coming up as a "normal every day part" is because it IS the normal part in newer vans with passenger airbags that can be turned off at will. And I probably have a different sensor in my van that is not "turn offable." So hence I could get that sensor and do what I want with that seating position. Here is appendix III for those who are curious.

Attachment III
Procedure for modifying the VN127 Econoline Air Bag Sensor System when the front passenger seat is being removed from a fully built van equipped without the optional passenger air bag. Refer to Attachment IIIa in conjunction with the procedure below. (Cutaway builds are not affected.)
1. Disconnect all batteries. There may be more than one battery on some builds. Wait one (1) minute; this is the time required for backup power supply in the diagnostic monitor to deplete.
2. Disconnect the Electronic Crash Sensor (ECS) module from the wire harness. 3. Disconnect the safety belt and buckle pretensioner at the passenger seat assembly. 4. Remove the passenger seat. 5. Remove the ECS module from the right-hand cowl side. 6. Replace the ECS module with an F7UB-14A685-A level ECS module. 7. Reconnect the ECS module to the wire harness. 8. Reconnect all batteries.
9. Check air bag system function by turning the key to the “on” position and observe the air bag warning light. This light should illuminate for 6 to 8 seconds, then turn off. If it stays illuminated of flashes, consult the repair manual for the repair procedures.
NOTE: TheF7UB-14A685-Amoduleisthemodulethatisreleasedforcutawayvehicles originallybuiltwithoutapassenger seat and without the optional passenger air bag.

One thing I'm not sure about (but not a big deal) is if I put in this module that makes it optional (and I remove the passenger seat). Okay, then I know I could just put the original module back in when I put the passenger seat back in; but OTOH, is there a way I could retain the new module and then have the "optionality" that apparently newer vans have. You all with newer vans: Do you have a switch or something? Does it go by some other hidden sensor? This is not really important to me, as I think I could just go back to the old module, but OTOH, if I could keep the new one and have it able to just go back and forth, that would be extra nice.

Thanks!

Viva

[Viva]

One more note, presuming I'm getting this now. There were apparently three generations of airbags (in general)

1) You have airbags, you have no choice in the matter unless you disable the whole system (see #4)

2) You have airbags, but if you want the passenger one off (baby, etc.) you can turn the passenger one off via this switch.

3) You have airbags and we now have sensors in the seat so we can decide whether the load is heavy (adult) or light (baby, bag of groceries) and if so we will disable the passenger airbag for you.

4) (Special case, as per bulletin posted by carringb) This vehicle has been modified to have no passenger airbag (as in the bulletin, via the Type #2/3 module, but presumably with no physical "on/off" switch since seat is presumed to be removed).

My van is clearly Type 1, but can be made to be Type #4 with the module. I don't know whether the newer vans are type 2 or type 3, but I presume at some point they went to one of those from Type 1).

Whew, I hope this ends up helping someone else who is wondering. I will report back if/when I do this with the newer module (and if the pre-tensioner doesn't kill me...)

[carringb]

I think you may be correct about the "optional" airbag configuration. Starting in '09 vans could be ordered with the passenger-airbag-off key switch. Prior to '09, only the cutaways could be ordered with it, and only as an SVO (large volume fleet) order. If you look in any Uhaul E450, they all have the passenger key-operated switch.

[Viva]

Thanks, carringb! I think I'm on the right track now, and if so, the "weird" language in that bulletin you linked to makes sense vs. being a typo. It would also make sense as to why that crash sensor seems so available - if it is common for newer vehicles.

It's still a bit weird in that oftentimes I see it says "for 1997-2003," but then who knows with eBay, where I have seen most of them. I also see the same part number but with an added letter/digit on the end i.e. they end in "AC" instead of just "A."

Anyway, the main thing is that I think I now understand what they are getting at. It was totally annoying me to feel like I had no control over whether or not I have a passenger seat, without possibly disabling the driver's side airbag (and you just know it's not the type of thing I could take in and have a Ford dealer do, because right, they're going to take out my passenger seat and airbag... suuure...)

I also wanted to make sure I could re-enable it, because I want to be able to put things back "properly" either for selling or for my own use.

Viva

[86Scotty]

Looks like CarringB got you the right info if you choose to go through the trouble. I'm much lazier, and here's the question I have. If you have any small bad connection, such as the plug in the passenger seat coming undone (my last van had an intermittent light too due to me adding a swivel seat and pulling the plug too tight a few times) would your DRIVER airbag stop working too? I would call that a very bad design, and a lawsuit or 10 looking for a place to happen. I would think that any car company would be obligated to keep as many airbags working as possible and not shut the whole system down to do one little plug. Perhaps there's something I don't understand.

This is very interesting stuff btw

[Abitibi]

I like this Aussie newsletter, they always come up with interesting articles and lots of DIY... This ones relates to disabling airbag.

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=113042

Cheers
Mr. D


Sent from my iPorn using TapaChat HD

[JWA]

Originally Posted by 86Scotty

This is very interesting stuff btw

If by "interesting" you really mean "confusingashell" then I fully concur!

Adding to the mix of WTH my '00 E250 was not equipped with passenger side airbag. The trim panel did not have SRS nor that thin parting line in its middle although there was a connector in that empty spot, securely mounted to the metal super structure of the dash board and no doubt for the then-optional air bag.

[Viva]

Since I'm linking to this thread in another airbag thread, I figured I'd bring it up to date with where I am now. Not that I'm not anything but a van/SMB enthusiast, so any of my information could be wrong, unsafe, etc. It's what I understand to be true though - and always subject by correction from those who know more.

To summarize: In 1997 Ford vans received a passenger side airbag. The way the airbag system seems to work, if any component is disturbed, the airbag light comes on in the dash and at that point the whole airbag system is disabled. (Sometimes a code will flash, which you can look up and figure out what the problem is, but after the flash code the light will come on solid at which point you have no airbags until the light is taken care of by fixing the problem.)

For some period of time (1997 to....?? 2005+?) there was no way for an owner to "shut off" the passenger airbag. This could be a problem for a baby car seat, removing the passenger seat for cargo handling, etc. It looks like there is some federal document you can fill out and take to Ford dealers and they will (might?) disable the airbag, but I have not looked into that further. I also don't know if this would still work if the seat were removed, which was what I wanted as an option for solo trips.

Later (2005 or so?) models have an airbag switch or similar so you can shut the passenger airbag on or off at will, as far as I can tell (can anyone confirm?).

So, for example, a 1997 van will be considered to not have an "optional airbag." (I was confused by this at first, because the airbag is not optional, so what were they talking about? But what I now think they mean is by "optional airbag" is an airbag that has the *option* to be shut off; so not an option like something you select when buying the van, as in "optional leather seats.")

Thus, if a person with a 1997 (or thereabouts) van wants to remove the passenger seat, they can't "just do it" without causing the airbag light to come on, thus disabling the whole airbag system (driver's side as well). So... options:

1) Apparently it is (unofficially) possible to put a resistor in the airbag connector for the passenger side seat This will allow one to remove the passenger seat without the airbag system "knowing" it, and so there will be no code/no light, and the airbag system will function normally (just without a seat there). But, this means that in a crash that airbag will go off, which one might not want.

2) The bulletin that CarringB posted a link to back in the early part of the thread outlines how the seat can "officially" be removed in vans that came without the "optional" airbag (meaning that you have the "option" to disable the airbag). Because Ford did make 1997 and on vans without a passenger seat (shuttle bus, etc.), there is an ECS module (electronic crash sensor) made for vans with a passenger seat (what we would normally have), and then there is an ECS module made for vans without a passenger seat. So what the linked document describes is how to swap the "normal" ECS for the other ECS that would have been in a shuttle bus or other vehicle that had the airbag system for the passenger side (1997+) but didn't have (or didn't want to have) a passenger seat. The advantage to this method is that not only does the airbag system (driver's side) keep on working as it should; but also, if there is a crash, the passenger side airbag will not deploy, as it "knows" there is no seat there.

It also seems as though this module could be switched back to the original, so the van wouldn't be permanently changed (to no passenger seat).

The pre-tensioners are potentially dangerous and have to be handled carefully (as described in linked document). Kinda makes me look at them sidelong as they are in my van on a daily basis...

I bought one of these "non passenger seat" ECS modules (they are available on eBay and from junkyards), but have not yet installed it (still have passenger seat in van). If/when I install it, I will update.

[BrianW]

The airbag-deactivation switch on newer Ford vans is a factory option and must be ordered. My dad has a 2011 (2012?) E150 without the switch and we looked pretty deeply into this as he occasionally had to drive my young son in his van in the front seat and we wanted to disable the airbag.

Talking with a few different local Ford dealers, it appears that there is no "official" way to install this switch after the fact, and that it can only be installed by the factory when the van is built. My parts guy did give me the part numbers for the switch and related components, but I think the wiring may be different? This was a year or two or three ago and I don't recall exactly. I think there's a thread somewhere here or on the Ford Truck van forum about it.