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-   -   Rolled over SMB in Canyon Lands? (https://www.sportsmobileforum.com/forums/f9/rolled-over-smb-in-canyon-lands-21973.html)

arctictraveller 07-17-2018 11:40 AM

Rolled over SMB in Canyon Lands?
 
While at the B.C. Overland rally, one of the trainers (Bob) was giving a class on Heavy vehicle recovery and explained that his 80 / 20 rule means you will likely use your recovery gear 80% of the time on other people. He then related that he recently was called upon to assist in the recovery of a SMB that had rolled on it's side in Canyon Lands NP. That left me with several questions such as, was that anyone here? How do you minimize additional damage when up-righting a rolled over van, and what might have caused said accident? Unfortunately, I never got the chance to ask him as he was really busy teaching back to back classes. So, anyone know about this?

Grampswrx 07-17-2018 12:57 PM

I was hoping for pictures....

larrie 07-17-2018 05:54 PM

I saw a photo someplace but cannot remember where it was.

Nrobert10 07-17-2018 09:50 PM

He told the same story at the NW overland ralley but again he was too busy to ask the details.

carringb 07-21-2018 03:21 PM

I've done many vehicle rollovers, and all without causing additional damage. A few key things to do:

1) place 4x4s or rocks or other chocks where the rig is going to land when it's uprighted. There's plenty or horror videos on YouTube where the rescued rig rolled away as soon as it was upright, sometimes taking the rescuing vehicle with it.

2) Get close and do a low-pull. You want as much down-angle as possible while keeping the winching rig out of the way. This allows the rolled vehicle to come back over without sliding. Most extra damaged I've was from from doing a horizontal pull, which often just drags the rolled vehicle around.

3) If its on its roof, use a "pogo stick" to elevated the winch-line above the chassis 3 or 4 feet. You want the pogo on the near side of the chassis to the winching vehicle. I used PVC pipe but 4x4s work great too. This again ensures some of the pull is translated into downforce. As a bonus, this lets you rig to the far side of the chassis, so you don't have to re-set your winchline once it's on its side.

4) Rig to hard points, ie. use chokers around the frame or cross-members or control arms.. This is not the time to use hooks through holes, since a hook ripping out could cause a worse rollover. Also rig to both ends of the rolled vehicle using 2 points, so the winch-line is stable, and it won't try to spin the vehicle.

Finally... If you don't know the victim well, don't try it. Good Samaritan laws cover medical first responders, not road recoveries. If you touch it, and it breaks, you could be on the hook for the additional damages...

adventurevan5 07-26-2018 10:44 AM

Good info, thanks.

moorefc 07-26-2018 10:49 AM

Have a friend from Sedona that reported what sounds like same story a couple weeks back. His neighbor has a 4X4 SMB diesel that went to Canyonlands, the Maze area, and rolled it 100 miles in spilling 30gal fuel (100 years of ouch)...Other 3 rigs got him righted. He stated it is going thru a very expensive repair....

arctictraveller 08-06-2018 09:09 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I wonder if this is it? Photo from Facebook 4 X 4 van page.

rallypanam 08-06-2018 10:29 PM

That's gonna be an expensive driving lesson.

Tienckb 08-06-2018 11:10 PM

Rolled over SMB in Canyon Lands?
 
[QUOTE=rallypanam;232597]That's gonna be an expensive driving lesson.[/

Wonder if Bill Burke’s class teaches recovery of this type.

moorefc 08-07-2018 02:03 PM

Would be interesting to know how they pulled that one out! No trees on that cliff to grab, and not much room to maneuver...

BroncoHauler 08-07-2018 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moorefc (Post 232646)
Would be interesting to know how they pulled that one out! No trees on that cliff to grab, and not much room to maneuver...

I'm still trying to figure out how they got into that flopped-over position on a narrow road. I can't imagine they went that far right onto the embankment.


Herb

moorefc 08-07-2018 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroncoHauler (Post 232651)
I'm still trying to figure out how they got into that flopped-over position on a narrow road. I can't imagine they went that far right onto the embankment.


Herb


We probably don't see the area that initiated the rollover since he must have been rolling along...so to speak..Looking at the left tires positions the van was pretty far right, maybe to avoid the rock drop bumper grind?? Ouch...

MountainBikeRoamer 08-07-2018 03:51 PM

1 Attachment(s)
One observation:
Without a slightly-higher-resolution image, it's hard to be totally sure....

.....but those look like some fairly-tame tires on that rig (to be tackling that trail.) It's possible he wasn't getting the best traction with those things, maybe wasn't adequately aired down, all conjecture of course.

rob_gendreau 08-08-2018 05:07 PM

Yeah, my first thought was that where the snatch line goes over the lip makes it look kinda steep, and maybe the left front dove and it rolled on its left shoulder, so to speak and slid a bit. be interesting to know how they righted it. Real world is always far more complex than any training you do with winches, etc.

TomH 08-08-2018 06:30 PM

I wonder what the rating level was for that particular trail. I know that a 2wd Westphalia once completed the White Rim Road in Canyonlands, but there are some trails in there that are only for rock crawling OHVs.

I have to wonder if the driver was so nervous about the drop on the left that he/she overcompensated by letting the right wheels ride way too high on the embankment to the right. (Or perhaps an inexperienced passenger demanded that the driver do so. My mother-in-law from the flatlands of south Georgia literally yelled and screamed at me to do that even on a paved mountain road.)

86Scotty 08-08-2018 09:17 PM

2wd Westfalias are anomalies though. Those things will go anywhere!

Hard to believe the tires on that van, good eye Mike.

MadScience 08-09-2018 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86Scotty (Post 232739)
Hard to believe the tires on that van, good eye Mike.

I had to go back and forth between that image and some BFGs a couple of times to conclude the same thing. Good eye indeed.

Without knowing more, I'd guess they rode up on the inside wall. You can put a vehicle on it's side or even roof shockingly suddenly by riding a tire up into a snow bank. The only difference with a stone wall would be the amount of traction, making it even more effective.

But really, I don't think we have enough information here to draw any real conclusions. I just hope no one was injured in any non-trivial way, and it wasn't too much work to get the thing upright and out of there.

Nrobert10 08-09-2018 09:55 AM

If I remember correctly and if this indeed is the picture Bob was referring to and the overland rally he indicated they drive too high on the wall trying to avoid a hole or drop off and it rolled over.

moorefc 08-09-2018 10:06 AM

A neighbor of the owner verified the vehicle and that it has been repaired and is back in the driveway in Az...
Looking forward to hearing the story from the owner next time we get down that way.......

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arctictraveller 08-09-2018 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moorefc (Post 232771)
A neighbor of the owner verified the vehicle and that it has been repaired and is back in the driveway in Az...
Looking forward to hearing the story from the owner next time we get down that way

I suspect we are getting closer to learning what happened here, and indeed if this really is the van that Bob help recover. I'm looking forward to hearing the story.

shenrie 08-09-2018 10:51 AM

^^^ funny how small the word gets with the internet.

pic makes me sad to see. hope it all has a happy ending.

when looking into recovery methods for an instant like this i stumbled into a thing called a flip flop winch. google it. pretty cool method for vehicle extraction with less than ideal stuff.

86Scotty 08-09-2018 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shenrie (Post 232781)
^^^ funny how small the word gets with the internet.

pic makes me sad to see. hope it all has a happy ending.

when looking into recovery methods for an instant like this i stumbled into a thing called a flip flop winch. google it. pretty cool method for vehicle extraction with less than ideal stuff.

That. is. brilliant.

https://youtu.be/QFDGGht3CQU

BroncoHauler 08-09-2018 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86Scotty (Post 232784)
That. is. brilliant.

https://youtu.be/QFDGGht3CQU

Absolutely awesome. I am glad he addressed the safety considerations, given how much tension there is in the ropes and how it could cause those logs to snap or swing wildly.


Herb

Twoxentrix 08-09-2018 12:39 PM

Never seen that before - Invaluable. Thats the kinda stuff i appreciate most.

TomH 08-09-2018 01:13 PM

AMAZING! Simple, effective, and minimal gear required. Love it.

arctictraveller 08-09-2018 05:19 PM

I've seen numerous recovery methods you can devise in the bush. Almost all of them require the use of several small logs, lashing, holes dug in the ground, and a lot of manual labor. If you happen to be stuck somewhere beyond outside assistance, and you don't have enough recovery gear, these methods can eventually get you out, but are labor intensive. For an old fat guy like me, having a good amount of recovery gear aboard, including a winch, will make the process a lot easier. Just the thought of trying to dig a hole in firm ground, big enough to bury my spare tire as an anchor point makes my back hurt. Better to have a buddy or two along, or natural anchor points. If I was stuck in the Darian gap with a broken winch, I suppose I'd start chopping and digging though. It's good to know there are options.......

rob_gendreau 08-09-2018 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arctictraveller (Post 232838)
I've seen numerous recovery methods you can devise in the bush. Almost all of them require the use of several small logs, lashing, holes dug in the ground, and a lot of manual labor. If you happen to be stuck somewhere beyond outside assistance, and you don't have enough recovery gear, these methods can eventually get you out, but are labor intensive. For an old fat guy like me, having a good amount of recovery gear aboard, including a winch, will make the process a lot easier. Just the thought of trying to dig a hole in firm ground, big enough to bury my spare tire as an anchor point makes my back hurt. Better to have a buddy or two along, or natural anchor points. If I was stuck in the Darian gap with a broken winch, I suppose I'd start chopping and digging though. It's good to know there are options.......

Yeah, I notice lots of SMBers often go alone (ie one van maybe two people). All my 4x4 friends with jeeps and such go in groups, which is the intelligent way to do it.

Faced with a daunting recovery scenario like that rollover I'd be tempted to just walk out and put the van on the eBay as is as soon as I got a signal.... :n5::n5:

86Scotty 08-09-2018 07:34 PM

When I see stuff like this I start to realize how the pyramids got constructed, how Stonehenge was built and how Easter Island came to be.

BroncoHauler 08-09-2018 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86Scotty (Post 232848)
When I see stuff like this I start to realize how the pyramids got constructed, how Stonehenge was built and how Easter Island came to be.

Interstellar aliens. Definitely aliens. I'm hoping they come visit me if I ever have a rollover on the trail.

Probing not allowed!
:j4:




Herb

86Scotty 08-09-2018 07:52 PM

You've been waiting years to use that emoticon, haven't you Herb?

:D

arctictraveller 08-09-2018 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob_gendreau (Post 232847)
Yeah, I notice lots of SMBers often go alone (ie one van maybe two people). All my 4x4 friends with jeeps and such go in groups, which is the intelligent way to do it.:

I know I prefer to get as far away from other people as I can, it's the main reason I bought my van and I'm sure lots of SMB owners feel the same way. Sometimes you have to take some risks to find those places but never the less, I'd like to think I use a finely tuned sense of survival when deciding if I should continue down a trail, but in reality, I just kind of go by how badly my butt is grabbing the seat. I've been talked into a few situations I probably shouldn't have, but I haven't wrecked the van yet. I do try to plan ahead though and think how I would rescue myself if I had to, given the terrain, possible anchor points etc, but if I'm alone, I'll always error on the side of caution.

larrie 08-16-2018 03:06 PM

Here is the photo of the van that I mentioned earlier.

https://www.sportsmobileforum.com/for...ture38396.jpeg

shenrie 08-16-2018 03:42 PM

Man what a weird place to be parked on your side. Dude had to have driven up the side somehow. How the hell did they right that rig?

Twoxentrix 08-16-2018 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shenrie (Post 233489)
How the hell did they right that rig?

I'm with you on that - would be very interesting to see how it was accomplished. Placement suggests more damage in the process, Cant imagine how painful it was for the owner.

dig255 08-16-2018 04:17 PM

Can you imagine the pucker factor rolling to the down hill side, and it looks like a long way down in the background.

BroncoHauler 08-16-2018 06:06 PM

Meanwhile, the guy in the red truck is thinking WTF? Now that I say that, maybe the SMB was trying to back up so the red truck could pass?


Herb

bad luck 08-16-2018 08:13 PM

My wife works up in the I sky section of Canyonlands. I'll ask her if she knows the scoop on that. Or if she doesn't one of the rangers she works with will probably know.
But maybe this is the Maze section or down in the Needles, I'm not sure.

arctictraveller 08-16-2018 08:24 PM

Ok, that photo settles it, the red truck in the photo is Bob Wohlers. His company is Off-Road safety academy, and he offers training in a wide range of subjects related to off roading, including vehicle recovery. https://discoveroffroading.com/ That has to be the SMB he mentioned. I knew you guys would figure it out. Now to find out the details of the accident and the recovery.

BVerhulst 08-16-2018 08:25 PM

Just roll it down to the next switchback? And secretly hope that it keeps going for a few more so you can be sure to declare it a total loss with the insurance company?

Man, heart goes out to that guy and, all joking aside, I’d love to know 1) how it happened and 2) how they rectified the situation. Looks like you’d have to drag it forward to a wider section of road, additional damage be damned.


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