2wd locker question

[dkonzelman]

I have a question for you Ford guys and gals about gear ratios. I am planning to put a locker in my rear end and keep it true 2wd. I have not been able to ID my rear end yet. The door code says C2 which would mean limited slip but when I broke them loose to test it on some grass and gravel only one wheel spun.

I guess my questions are:

1) If I DID want to run larger than 33" tires, say 35's would a 411 gear be best? Not planning to tow anything regularly or I've heard 456 would be good.

2) Thinking ARB locker and compressor so I can air up and down.

3) Anything else I'd need to know and you think the extra cost etc would be worth it? Mostly driving on washboard and rutted roads at 40mph for hours in Baja...

Main build thread here:

https://www.sportsmobileforum.com/f...2-7-3-baja-pre-runner-26086-4.html#post272919

 

[NavyNuke]

Looking at the same, trying to decide between ARB, and eaton E-locker.

I have a Dana-60 full float, ARB and gears are a direct fit, Eaton requiresnew axle shafts(as far as I can tell).

Gearing with 33's is dead between factory 3.73 ratio i have snd 4.10. Like you my interior build is pretty light.


Hope this helps, but also looking for ingo fro. Those that know more too.

 

[carringb]

4.10 is probably the best for your motor and 33s.

4.56 would be too much. You'd be above peak hp in overdrive on the freeway in some states. 4.30s might be good with 35's except you probably have a Dana 60, and 4.30 gears in the 60 have weak pinion teeth. I sheared some of mine off, and hence why I moved to 4.56.

 

[arctictraveller]

"Mostly driving on washboard and rutted roads at 40mph for hours in Baja..."

For your projected use, you could probably, tune up the limited slip, change the gears and spend the savings on other improvements like better suspension and tires for those washboard roads. Hours of high speed washboard is very hard on suspension. Good shocks will work much better and last longer. Better springs will be a big improvement. A good compressor to air up the tires. You will use that stuff every day as opposed to a locker that will likely be used about 0.000001 % of the time.

 

[REDOVAL]

I have been running an ARB locker with 4.56 gears and 35s on my van for a while now and it works great overall. I have a very robust air delivery system so incorporating the locker was no big deal. I keep it locked most of the time offroad mostly so I can have more fun sliding through corners. I do agree though with actictraveller that you don't really need it for dirt road type conditions. We have never been stuck in our van even in very sandy and muddy conditions, but I have a lifetime of offroad experience from bikes and that plays a large part in how to approach certain situations without compounding them further.

Be prepared though with running a setup like mine....$2500 for the locker/dana gears/rebuild and labor. Not cheap but worth it in my opinion. I am running the ARB diff cover as well so I can change and check the fluid easily.

Scott

 

[arctictraveller]

A less expensive solution to installing a locker is to simply make sure if your thinking about travel in extreme conditions, make sure you travel with friends who can give you a tug. I run the stock limited slip in my rear diff, and despite having 4wd, I rarely use it, and i do a lot of off road in Baja and elsewhere. About the only times I get stuck is in deep sand, and at that point, even with 4wd, I still get stuck.

 

[dkonzelman]

What is the easiest way to test if it’s working or not? Because I’m not able to identify the rear end I’m not positive it’s been swapped out or not. If it’s not actually a limited slip I’m definitely going to have to put a locker in.

 

[BrianW.]

Find a dirt or gravel road with a loose surface and floor it from a stop. Do it a few times and go back and look to see if you see two wheel spins or one.

Your diff doesn’t have a code tag on it?

 

[dkonzelman]

Find a dirt or gravel road with a loose surface and floor it from a stop. Do it a few times and go back and look to see if you see two wheel spins or one.

Your diff doesn’t have a code tag on it?

No code at all. None of the normal numbers in the normal places. I spun them for a bit but not long does it take a sec for it to kick in?

 

[vintageracer]

Just remember a supposedly 2WD vehicle without a locking device in the rear-end is a 1WD vehicle. A supposedly 4WD vehicle without any type of axle locking device installed in either the front or rear axle is a 2WD vehicle. Add a rear locking device to the rear or front axle and you now have a 3WD vehicle. It takes locking devices front and rear to have a true 4WD vehicle.

Having said that installing an axle locking device in your rear axle assembly is a huge advantage over standard 1WD van.
All the mechanical and friction type of axle locking or limited slip devices are automatic in their operation. That's not necessarily a good thing! In some situations an automatic locking rear axle is far worse than having a 1 legger open rear-end. Example is ICE. A locking device in the rear-end of a rear wheel drive vehicle on an icy road is a huge disadvantage and down right unsafe!

IF I were going to stay 2WD with your van I would SPEND (your not investing in anything) the money and buy/install an ARB air locker as suggested by "Redoval" to give you the ultimate control over your rear axle. Not everyone is an experienced off-roader that can get through the trail with a 1WD or 2WD Ford big, heavy bulky van.

My 4WD ASSTRO van has a Detroit Locker in the rear axle an ARB air locker in the front. I could remove the Detroit locker in the rear axle and not miss it at all. The ARB locker in the front axle is that good! The ARB air locker is expensive and worth it if you off-road in places you should not be with a van!

Personally if I had a supposed 4WD vehicle that did not have a locking device in the rear or front axle I would install a locking device in the front axle FIRST before the rear axle. Having a locking device particularly a fully controllable locking device like an ARB air locker in the front axle is a HUGE advantage when you need it far more so than having a automatic locking device in the rear axle. I could have a 1 legger rear-end with an ARB air locker in the front axle of my vehicle and go far more places than having a locker in the rear axle and not one in the front axle.

The ARB also gives you a good air pump to air up and down your tires when needed!

 

[jimtmcdaniels]

Sounds like your very lucky, already have a limited slip rear that you want that might meet your needs perfectly.
Sounds like the friction plates may be worn down requiring a friction plates kit rebuild that can be done diy following videos on line.
The factory friction plates usually require a friction modifier added to an axle oil change.
Often there are a few spacers that can be replaced with the best used friction plates during the kit installation that will increase the bite and activation of the friction plates if usually desired but can give a bit of shudder on road turns especially under heavy throttle till the new discs quickly normalize.
The factory friction plates are not lockers and can only give a certain amount of resistance which is ideal for street racing and light off road use when one wheel has a bit more traction than the other like in mud or ice.
For the price, I'd say you can't beat rebuilding with a ford friction discs kit diy call it good for the next 60,000 miles or more. But if you need heavy spinning use or more of a full lockup then it's not going to meet your needs.
I talk from experience with my 1993 ford ranger with a limited slip.
I never do hard core 4x4 off road but I enjoy snow and mud some and our vans already have higher clearance than cars so I'm content with factory builds.

Our mind's dreams and fantasies can lift our feet off reality and talk us into getting things we may never need. A great tool I've found to keep it honest and real is write on paper all the pros and cons and what you expect to use and encounter with the van and then you can make a real decision with grounded feet.
Take care

 

[dkonzelman]

Sounds like your very lucky, already have a limited slip rear that you want that might meet your needs perfectly.
Sounds like the friction plates may be worn down requiring a friction plates kit rebuild that can be done diy following videos on line.

Our mind's dreams and fantasies can lift our feet off reality and talk us into getting things we may never need. A great tool I've found to keep it honest and real is write on paper all the pros and cons and what you expect to use and encounter with the van and then you can make a real decision with grounded feet.
Take care

Good advice! On paper the only thing I wrote down was "Don't ever get stuck in Baja alone". It has happened a few times in a few rigs. All the rigs I have been in though 99% of the time are running in 2wd and if the goal is to avoid getting stuck we should be able to do that!

 

[dkonzelman]

Just remember a supposedly 2WD vehicle without a locking device in the rear-end is a 1WD vehicle. A supposedly 4WD vehicle without any type of axle locking device installed in either the front or rear axle is a 2WD vehicle. Add a rear locking device to the rear or front axle and you now have a 3WD vehicle. It takes locking devices front and rear to have a true 4WD vehicle.


The ARB also gives you a good air pump to air up and down your tires when needed!

Thanks for the help and thoughtful reply VintageRacer. I appreciate that.

Yes! The ARB compressor is a must. My syncro has this as well as a factory VW locker and I use the comp all the time to air up and down, blow up floaty toys etc. Now debating a rebuild of the limited slip vs putting a locker in. Anyone with experience of rebuilding the LS? Check out the photos of traction I posted on the build thread.

https://www.sportsmobileforum.com/f...-thread-1992-7-3-baja-pre-runner-26086-5.html

 

[arctictraveller]

What is the easiest way to test if it’s working or not? Because I’m not able to identify the rear end I’m not positive it’s been swapped out or not. If it’s not actually a limited slip I’m definitely going to have to put a locker in.

If I'm not mistaken, you can raise both rear wheels off the ground and then spin one tire. If the opposite tire spins in the opposite direction you have an open diff.

 

[jimtmcdaniels]

Great replies and discussion all!
My understanding is the factory limited slip is ideally for street racing where both rear tires are on similar gripping ground. The word limited seems to really apply to how much the factory design can help when one tire is on a slick surface and the other is not. If the two grips on the tires is quite different, the friction plates can't hold the tired together anything near as strong as a locker. This allows the factory LS to make turns and slip.
But the factory LS can work immediately for street racing where lockers and such will have a delay to engage.
But if your need is hard core like rock climbing, the factory LS isn't going to help at all, it can't transfer all the power when one wheel is totally off the ground, the friction plates can't lock, they just resist to a certain limited extent and excessive spinning will wear them.
My ranger that had it, one problem with the factory LS was I couldn't use the Stickler rear wheel attachment for splitting wood with. Because the Stickler requires no limited slip so that the tire axle the stickler was attached to was off the ground and the other side was on the ground. Because of the LS, the other rear tire on the ground would start rocking the truck trying to move it could fall off the jack.
I believe the test for factory friction plates limited slip is to jack one rear tire off the ground and with a tire blocked and in neutral, try spinning that raised rear tire by hand. With the LS if the friction plates aren't worn out, will resist the turn because it wants to keep both wheels locked together.
I'm not hard core at all, I just enjoyed the LS for winter time and once rebuilt with new friction plates with some extra plates in place of spacers(factory seems to use some spacers to illuminate any chatter when new and turning a corner but reduces the action when needed). It worked well in snow yet if I was to get really stuck, and really gun the engine, it would have trouble holding the tires together if one is on ice and the other on bare road and this will wear the plates eventually. Additionally the LS is dangerous on snow ice if you accelerate too much or down shift too hard, then instead of one wheel spinning while driving, Both rear wheels can start spinning and then your rear end is no longer steering and can whip around. For an inexperienced driver who doesn't know what is going on, this could cause an accident if not corrected immediately.
Or you can jack up both rear tires off the ground in neutral with a front wheel blocked and turning one wheel by hand should also turn the other wheel strongly.
If your rear diff has factory ls, I think it can be hard to add a locker are designed for conventional diffs...

Hope you find what you need.

 

[dkonzelman]

Thanks all for the info and help here. I have identified that my rear end is indeed a c2 rear end (so long as someone didn’t swap in something else). That means I should have a LS with 4:10 gearing.

What are the options for lockers for this? It is a Dana 60 if the above info is correct I think. Wondering what I need to know before pulling the trigger on a kit.

Thanks in advance!

 

[kkjellquist]

A less expensive solution to installing a locker is to simply make sure if your thinking about travel in extreme conditions, make sure you travel with friends who can give you a tug. I run the stock limited slip in my rear diff, and despite having 4wd, I rarely use it, and i do a lot of off road in Baja and elsewhere. About the only times I get stuck is in deep sand, and at that point, even with 4wd, I still get stuck.

As a fellow open diff 2WD owner I'm coming around to this. When we bought Margo some kind of axle swap was on our list and now I'm probably not going to bother. AT tires, shock upgrade, and conservative decision making are probably a much better route for me!

 

[TRAVRSS]

2WD with ARB locker and compressor is about as good as it gets without the jump to 4WD. Don't forget the traction boards and a shovel though... I dug myself out of the deep sand twice last week in Anza Borrego, testing my limits. It's hard to admit that twice part. The Mrs was impressed we got out of both situations!

I also learned that the diff fluid flows differently once the locker is installed, so consider larger bored holes for the recycle flow vents and raising the overflow tube a bit higher to avoid a mess.

Tires, shocks, and springs were the most beneficial upgrade for the extended washboards though... with tires aired down.:d5:

 

[BenJJ-SMB]

2WD with ARB locker and compressor is about as good as it gets without the jump to 4WD. Don't forget the traction boards and a shovel though... I dug myself out of the deep sand twice last week in Anza Borrego, testing my limits. It's hard to admit that twice part. The Mrs was impressed we got out of both situations!

I also learned that the diff fluid flows differently once the locker is installed, so consider larger bored holes for the recycle flow vents and raising the overflow tube a bit higher to avoid a mess.

Tires, shocks, and springs were the most beneficial upgrade for the extended washboards though... with tires aired down.:d5:

Hey TRAVRSS, I ended up with a big mess of diff fluid leaking after getting an ARB locker installed. Mine was installed by a professional shop (Weldtec). They basically told me that it would just find its happy place and stop leaking? This sound accurate at all?

After first discovering the mess and talking to them I added about a quart of fluid which then caused it to just leak more. I filled it up just below the drain plug level. I have driven it quite a bit since, over 1000 miles, and haven't had any issues and the locker seems to work just fine. I do carry extra diff fluid with me now just in case though.

Anything I should keep an eye out for? Their suggested solution just doesn't sit well so its been in the back of my mind on some of my more remote trips.

 

[TRAVRSS]

Hey TRAVRSS, I ended up with a big mess of diff fluid leaking after getting an ARB locker installed. Mine was installed by a professional shop (Weldtec). They basically told me that it would just find its happy place and stop leaking? This sound accurate at all?

After first discovering the mess and talking to them I added about a quart of fluid which then caused it to just leak more. I filled it up just below the drain plug level. I have driven it quite a bit since, over 1000 miles, and haven't had any issues and the locker seems to work just fine. I do carry extra diff fluid with me now just in case though.

Anything I should keep an eye out for? Their suggested solution just doesn't sit well so its been in the back of my mind on some of my more remote trips.

Yep, that sounds accurate. I had a differential shop do mine. And since the fluid spins in a different pattern now, he ended up going back in and bored out the return flow tube holes, to triple size, and then lifted the overflow tube to the top of the underside.

I had done a 1k mile trip and yep, it made a huge mess on the underside... I was concerned that the fluid would compromise the new spare tire underneath, but folks reassured me it would be fine.

Here is the thread from that incident: https://www.sportsmobileforum.com/forums/f33/oily-leak-in-the-rear-what-is-this-part-26994.html

H/T to carringb who sent a Banks video that got me up to speed...