Dana 70 HD rear wheel bearing hubs

[ScrapIron]

Does anyone know if the rear wheel bearing hubs on the full floating Dana 70's were all the same for the E350 dually van chassis axles? I looked up a 2004 on ford parts and it shows discontinued. Then i look up a 2005 with dually and it lists the part. Is the 2004 and 2005 part the same?

I need to order a new dually hub to take to my machinist so he can make measurements to build me a set of custom bearing hubs with the 8x200mm lug pattern and a larger diameter hubcentric shoulder.

The plan is to use 7000 series aluminum to machine complete new bearing hubs. I had a company lined up to make them over a year ago but then i got bad sick and put everything on hold and now he is way to busy to do one off custom work so i found a different machine shop that is going to do the work.

I know alot of people are running aluminum wheel adapters/spacers. Wheel adapters says the thinnest he can make adapters is 2 inches. That would push my tires way out beyond my quarter panels and look terrible. Then i would be constantly worrying about a wheel falling off.

My rig weighs 10,400 pounds dry. Do you guys think what im doing is practical using high grade aluminum or should i have them use steel?

 

[boywonder]

Yield strength of 7075 Al is around 63,000-69,000 psi......similar to 1020 mild steel. There are many other steels with much higher yield strength.

For comparison, 6061-T6 yield strength is around 30,000-35,000 psi.

Steel will have better fatigue strength than aluminum as well..but will be around 3x heavier roughly....and not as corrosion resistant.

Hogging out hubs from a wrought 7075 billet has got to be $$$.....for the material alone.

You may be asking a lot for aluminum to do the job of a hub on a 10,000 lb vehicle.

I've been using 2" AL rear wheel spacers for years..van weighs 9000 lbs or so...no issues. I check them every so often.

 

[ScrapIron]

Yes i know its a heavy pig. Are you running spacers or adapters? These wont be spacers or adapters, they will be actual complete bearing hubs. Here is the company i was originally going to have make them for me. He claimed he has never once had one of his aluminum hubs fail (true or not? I dont know).

But if you look at the vehicles he is building them for, we know they are getting abused big time. https://www.innovativemachiningsolutions.com/

I checked prices on 7075 and two feet of 10 inch diameter is approximately $1000 per foot. Then you have the machine shop design and labor costs on top of that. Its not cheap thats for certain. That why i chose innovative machine to start with. He does great work and his costs for a finished product are reasonable. But his business grew so fast that now he claims he doesnt have time for one off custom work.

Heres another link for innovative. Its a rear hub kit for a dodge dually. Notice he is only using 6061 aluminum. https://www.innovativemachiningsolu...002-2018-dodge-3rd-4th-gen-aam-105115-drw-kit

I know the 6061 is considerably cheaper than the 7000 series, but $680 dollars for a pair of hubs? I dont know how he can sell them at that price and stay in business. He must be getting a real bargain on his metal prices.

 

[boywonder]

Are you running spacers or adapters?

Well, they are 8 x 6.5" to 8x 6.5" one set of 8 holes fastens the spacers to the hubs and the spacers have their own lugs also 8 x 6.5".....or perhaps they are adapters....6:

 

[ScrapIron]

Ya, those would be considered wheel adapters even though the wheel and the hub share the 8x6.5 lug pattern. That means your truck is reliant on those 2 inch thick aluminum adapters to support your 9000 pound truck and any abuse you may throw at it. Likely they are 6061 aluminum because not many companies use the 7000 series aluminum to make wheel spacers or adapters.

 

[Rebuilder-SMB]

I used HUB124 hubs to convert my 2003 D70 to 8x200. The hubs were a direct fit but I had to make some other mods to the axle to fit the bigger discs (with internal parking brake) and calipers. If your van already has the internal parking brakes it should be a pretty easy swap. You should be able to verify if a hub will fit by comparing the bearings of the different year axles. I noticed a lot of places say the HUB 124 isn't available but I found that Orielly's had them in stock online.

 

[ScrapIron]

So hub124 has the 8x200mm lug pattern? Did your axle shaft mount holes line up with the holes in the hub properly?

There are so many variables to check but little to no information available about each specific hub. Such as overall height etc.... for instance if the hub isnt the same length as the van hub the axles may not be engaged deep enough into the spider gears. Will the van brake rotors interchange with the bolt pattern on the back side of the hub. If not will the F350 rotors sit in the same position as the van rotors did in relation to the calipers (meaning are they centered with the existing calipers).

Can the van rotors be redrilled to fit hub124 or do you have to use the F350 rotors?

They make it impossible to research part interchange because they dont even list basic specs such as lug bolt pattern let alone dimensions of a hub.

My truck has small brake shoes that sit inside the rear brake rotors for a park brake.

But the main issue is that i am using 2020 Dodge Ram dually wheels not ford wheels. Thats easy enough to remedy if the HUB124 is 8x200mm. The dodge wheels have the 8x200mm lug pattern, but the wheel center holes are about 1mm smaller than the Fords wheels. Chuck the hubs in a lathe and turn the hubcentric shoulder down 1mm no biggy. But what i dont want is to be spending a bunch more money modifying brake calipers, brackets, parking brakes etc... when i can just have a pair of hubs built to spec and be done with it.

 

[ScrapIron]

So heres a comparison between the rotors of a 2005 F350 dually 4x4 that would use 8x200mm wheels, and a 2005 E350 dually van chassis that has 8x6.5 inch wheels.

The rotors will not interchange, the center hole on the van rotors are much smaller and the bolt pattern to bolt them on the hubs is not the same.

The F350 rotor is much larger diameter than the van rotor, and the height of the rotor when layed down on a flat surface is different with the f350 rotor being taller than the van rotor when measuring front to back.

The F350 rotor is also thicker than the van rotor.

All of this and we havent even touched on the dimensions of the HUB124 versus the vans rear hub simply because those specs arent available online to the average joe.

For this hub to work on a ford dually van the hub would have to be approximately .568 inches shorter on the back side than the dually van hub. Thats the only way the rotor will line up with the centerline of the caliper. But then we are still left with a rotor that is over 1/2" inch larger diameter than the van rotors since the rotors do not interchange between hubs.

The next issue is leaf spring clearance on a dually truck between the back side of the tires and the leaf spring. Running a 9.6 inch wide tire 245/75-16 i have approximately 1/4" inch of clearance between the tire and the leaf spring. That brings us back to the hub124 and exactly where the front of the wheel mount surface is located in relation to the back side of the inner wheel bearing, otherwise known as the offset of the wheel mount surface.

I dont doubt that you made it work, but at what cost in parts and what compromises had to be made. Theres alot more to it than just getting a hub to slide over a spindle and bearings that fit properly.

If i have to put a 1/2 inch thick stack of machine washers between my caliper and the mounting bracket its a no go. If i have to forget about my park brake, its a no go. Point being, i could waste a whole bunch of time and money trying to make HUB124 fit my truck and end up with a cobbled mess, or i can just pay to have hubs built that are in fact a direct bolt on and utilize all the existing van components taking all of the guess work out of it.

Again im not saying you werent successful in making them fit your truck, im just saying there are way to many unkowns and variables on my end to even spend a dime trying to make them work.

 

[Rebuilder-SMB]

Sounds like you have a great plan to get custom hubs made. For my application it made more sense to go with all factory F series parts because I ended up with bigger brakes and the built in parking brakes which my E450 needed after I had to remove the factory one on the trans output to install the T Case.

 

[ScrapIron]

Right, and thats what im getting at. It wasnt a matter of just finding a hub with 8x200mm lugs and bearings that fit the dana70 HD axle. You had to swap the caliper brackets, calipers, rotors, hubs and everything from the F series to make everything line up within reason and have a park brake again because yours had no pre-existing axle mounted park brake.

I havent looked at my rear calipers since i changed rear tires which was a couple of years ago. But as memory serves, theres no way on earth a brake rotor 1/2" inch larger diameter is going to fit on my truck utilizing the existing caliper brackets if memory serves me correct.

Dont get me wrong, im not about spending 3 grand on custom hubs if i can goto a salvage yard and buy a complete dually axle from an F series with 8x200mm lug pattern and simply swap all of the brackets out and slip the hubs on my existing dana70 HD and end up with the same wheel mount surface offset and everything fits and functions without cobbling things together to make it work.

So theres the question, how much cobbling, shimming, spacing, or compromises had to be made in order to make it fit if any? The reason i ask is because i dont want to spend $1200 on a used axle from the junk yard and the headache to get it home and part it out only to find out i have to cobble things to make it work on the van. Then have to turn around and pay a machinist to build custom hubs for me anyway because something doesnt quite fit right and has to be shimmed or installed in a less than optimal fashion.

How much clearance did you end up with between your leaf springs and the back side of your tires?

 

[carringb]

What year are you trying to swap hubs on? I’ve never heard of aluminum hubs on a heavy truck.

And why all this trouble to swap bolt patterns? A stock E450 has a 14.5K GVWR with 8x6.5 hubs. I swapped in an E450 axle and my rear axle weight often tops 12k on its own.

 

[ScrapIron]

What year are you trying to swap hubs on? I’ve never heard of aluminum hubs on a heavy truck.

And why all this trouble to swap bolt patterns? A stock E450 has a 14.5K GVWR with 8x6.5 hubs. I swapped in an E450 axle and my rear axle weight often tops 12k on its own.

Its a 2004 Chinook E350 that i am converting to 4x4. I installed a 2005 Dana 60 dually front axle under it which utilizes a minimum of a 17" inch dually wheel to clear the calipers, those wheels happen to have 8x200mm lug pattern. The ford 4x4 dually pickups went to the 8x200mm lug pattern in 2005. The purpose is to avoid having to carry two spare tires with different lug patterns.

Single rear wheel vans can get away with running the 8x170mm lug pattern and swapping a sterling axle with that lug pattern or just running an adapter/spacer from 8x6.5 to 8x170mm so it matches the front lug pattern. Thats a no go on the Chinook even though i can have a set of 8x200mm adapter/spacers built, they wont make them any thinner than two inches.

Since my outer tire is already flush with the outside of the quarter panel they would be sticking out of the wheel opening the full 2" inches, then i would be looking at getting custom flares and mud flaps to prevent them from throwing rocks against the side of the fiberglass body.

Hope that helps, its a bit of a nightmare no matter how its approached. The dana 80 is just a dana70 with bigger guts. That said theoretically a guy should be able to swap hubs, rotors, caliper brackets, calipers from the dana80 onto the dana70HD. The question is... Where do your tires end up in relation to the leaf springs? The reason being.... as it sits right now in stock form there is only approximately 1/4" clearance between the back side of a 245/75-16 tire and the side of the leaf springs.

All of that leaves me with two options...
#1- spend a bunch of time and money experimenting with dana80/70 hubs and parts and possibly end up back at square one. In 2005 - 2006.5 ford used a bearing hub on the dually pickup trucks with larger bearings and races, then in 2006.5 and up they went back to smaller bearings and races that they used in the trucks 2004 and earlier. That said, there are different hubs, different bearings, different seals, different rotors, etc....

#2- fork out big bucks to have the custom hubs machined and be done with it.

 

[carringb]

What about just swapping the front bolt pattern?

That’s what QuadVan does. The front 4x4 axle uses an adapter anyways over the rotor.

Or… you could buy an axle setup for SRW, and carry a single adapter to run a dually spare. That’s what I do. 265’s are too wide for a 6.5” dually wheels (I run 235s on the back). I run 8” wheels up front to be able to run those wider tires, which only comes in SRW backspacing.

I’m running 17” wheels all around. My rear inners and spare are from 2012 GMC, which are also 8x6.5 but had a smaller hub. I just machined out the center hole to 4.88” to fit. The spare is mounted to the adapter on the carrier, for use up front if ever needed.

 

[ScrapIron]

No can do, i purchased 6 brand new take offs from a 2021 dodge ram 3500 dually. I already have the fronts on the truck. I bought them specifically for the offset and backspacing.

The first pic is with stock unit bearings and ford lockouts, the second picture is after i installed the spyntec freespin kit, the third picture shows the original 16 inch Alcoa 8x6.5 wheels on the rear versus the 17 inch 8x200 dodge wheels on the front.

 

[ScrapIron]

Well i scoured the internet for a pair of HUB124 and there are none to be had. I also called three seperate Oreilly auto stores and there are none to be found.

I called my local Ford guy and had him convert the part number to a Ford number and then spent hours doing a nationwide search. Ford Discontinued the part and it can no longer even be ordered. After hours of searching i found a pair clear out on the West coast at a Ford dealership. Needless to say i snapped them up and they are now mine. From Ford they retail for $496.44 each.

I snatched them up for $305 each but shipping was $123 for the pair. Fingers are crossed that they are the correct Hubs and they dont send me some other part number.

I guess if they dont work out to my likeing i will put them back in their boxes and resell them at a rediculously high amount since they are next to impossible to find. :n5::a2:

This experiment is going to get costly i think. :c6::n7:

 

[ScrapIron]

Well the Ford dealer finally updated their inventory to reflect that there are no more new
5C3Z-1109-CC left on planet earth. It was showing two available for purchase even 2 hours after i ordered and paid for them.

I hope that means they were pulled from the shelf to fill my order and that i wont be getting a phone call saying "hey man sorry but those hubs were discontinued two years ago and someone failed to update our inventory so we will be doing a refund" followed by "oh by the way we charge a 15% restocking fee on all canceled orders" :e7:

I seem to be collecting a warehouse of new parts new tracbar, spring perches, spring isolators, REID knuckles, pitman arm, lugnuts, and now all the stuff to experiment on this rear axle. Anyone wanna stop by and help me install all of this stuff when it gets here so i dont have to rent a storage unit for new parts?:n5:

 

[ScrapIron]

Check it out boy's... theyre on the way already. Thats some top notch customer service. :d5:

 

[marret]

Awesome, the last two new ones on earth.

 

[Rebuilder-SMB]

Cool, glad you found a pair. Are you planning on trying to install them or just use them as a pattern for your machinist?

If you're going to try to install them with all the other F series parts you'll probably need Dorman 926-272 and 273 Brake Backing Plates to fit the larger rotors. Since your van already has the parking brake in the rotor these may bolt right on. Mine, being an E450 didn't have them and the caliper bracket flange on the axle was round so I had to cut them down and add machined spacers between the flange and the new backing plates to get it to work.

Another thing you'll need to know is the axle bolts on the HUB124 are 12mm vs 7/16" on your van (at least they were on mine) so you'd need to drill the holes out and get the 12mm bolts. It's only about 1mm difference so not a big deal.

At least now you'll have the hubs so all the other stuff is easy to buy, test and return if it doesn't work.

 

[ScrapIron]

I decided to order them and try to make them work. In the end it will likely cost about the same as the custom hubs because i am buying everything new versus just finding a used axle, but at least i wont have to wait another 4 months to get them. It will be an experiment of sorts.

I did some parts researching and i think i have come up with part numbers for parts that will make it work using the ford van hardware versus the F series parts. But its all speculation at this point until the hubs get here. :n7::n7:

My primary concern is in the distance from the back of the rear bearing in the hub to the front axle mounting surface. If they arent nearly the same measurement within reason my axles may not engage the spider gears in the carrier far enough. I guess if the hub ends up being to fat a guy can have a machinist shorten them in a lathe provided the axle bolt hole depth allows for it.

But i will cross that bridge when i get that far. I will do alot of measuring before i even start tearing the old hubs off so i can make benchtop comparisons. Once its done a guy can always get custom length axles made. Im just hoping to avoid that if possible.