Landuse Discussion

[BajaSportsmobile]

It is all about the economy. Tickets = revenue.

Issuing tickets justifies the need for Rangers which keeps them employed and over funded.

The good: looks like a great time! Totally jealous!

The rant: WTF? What does that ranger have to complain about? Looks like you're in the middle of the desert to me. Too far off the road? Huh? Are you gonna kill the grass? You think a struggling state economy would be happy to have you in their state parks but I guess not there. What is the world coming to. :d7:

Still glad you guys are having a great time. Still jealous.

:b5:

 

[Jeffrey-SMB]

Re: Anza Borrego over New years (Was Mojave)

The good: looks like a great time! Totally jealous!

The rant: WTF? What does that ranger have to complain about? Looks like you're in the middle of the desert to me. Too far off the road? Huh? Are you gonna kill the grass?
:b5:

While the photos seem to show the vehicles parked in a big turnout (open area), it's difficult to tell. Yes there are rules in place to protect the sensitive desert environment and creatures from rampant off road vehicle destruction. Thats's why you need to stay on the road or in designated parking or camping areas. If you actually think it is just a big pile of useless sand, then you need to open your eyes, put down the beer, and perhaps stop in a visitor center and examine the displays and information on desert flora and fauna. When I hike around the open desert, I am extremely careful where my feet land and what critters may be below the surface during the day. I've stopped in a hurry a dozen times to save the life of a desert tortoise that was sunbathing in the middle of the road by moving it far back into the desert. It's simply a matter of being aware of your environment, respecting and caring about it and understanding the rules and why the intelligent people who created them did so. And, yes, you just might kill the grass there. Plenty of critters depend on it for their survival ,and with the drought, it's making life quite difficult for them.

I also wonder what the total dollar amount of fees, expenses and purchases the entire SMB group actually paid to the State Parks and the State of CA to visit and enjoy that place? I'm not at all complaining that it might not be that much, but your comment about the 'struggling state economy' is pretty bizarre in this case.
----------------------

"It is all about the economy. Tickets = revenue. Issuing tickets justifies the need for Rangers which keeps them employed and over funded."

Do you actually believe that or are you just having fun?

 

[BajaSportsmobile]

Re: Anza Borrego over New years (Was Mojave)

This struck a nerve! Your right these were just a bunch of Redneck Outlaw Off-Roaders killing the desert... NOT!

I'll put down the Beer I'm not drinking if you will put out that Joint you are smoking!

While the photos seem to show the vehicles parked in a big turnout (open area), it's difficult to tell. Yes there are rules in place to protect the sensitive desert environment and creatures from rampant off road vehicle destruction. Thats's why you need to stay on the road or in designated parking or camping areas. If you actually think it is just a big pile of useless sand, then you need to open your eyes, put down the beer, and perhaps stop in a visitor center and examine the displays and information on desert flora and fauna. <They are camped in the middle of a huge wash that gets completely changed with every major storm. We don't exist in a 15 minute or even 50 year bubble. We, the human race will be long gone and that desert will still be there and just like when the Dinosaurs ate the grasses in the same area, the desert doesn't care, it lives in a multi-million year bubble - if not we would still see rampant damage from the native people that had no Rangers to tell them they couldn't have their fire on the ground,> When I hike around the open desert, I am extremely careful where my feet land and what critters may be below the surface during the day. I've stopped in a hurry a dozen times to save the life of a desert tortoise that was sunbathing in the middle of the road by moving it far back into the desert. <Don't tell that ranger; it is illegal to move a turtle, and you will get a revenue generating ticket.> It's simply a matter of being aware of your environment, respecting and caring about it and understanding the rules and why the intelligent people who created them did so. And, yes, you just might kill the grass there. Plenty of critters depend on it for their survival ,and with the drought, it's making life quite difficult for them. <You really have that little respect for the conscientiousness of that wonderful group of campers>

I also wonder what the total dollar amount of fees, expenses and purchases the entire SMB group actually paid to the State Parks and the State of CA to visit and enjoy that place? <You are kidding, right? I'm guessing between the lot, hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes are paid to the State of CA and three time that amount to the Federal Government. Did you ever learn the song "This land is my land, this land is your land. From California... This land was made for you and me." Not for Ranger Rick, the BLM or the Eco-conscious (who are so much more enlightened, lol). We all pay for it every day that we breath.> I'm not at all complaining that it might not be that much, but your comment about the 'struggling state economy' is pretty bizarre in this case.
----------------------

"It is all about the economy. Tickets = revenue. Issuing tickets justifies the need for Rangers which keeps them employed and over funded."

Do you actually believe that or are you just having fun?

Not fun or funny - reality. They have quotas for a reason.

 

[boywonder]

Re: Anza Borrego over New years (Was Mojave)

Everyone, please put down the beers and the joints........

I promise that no flora of fauna were injured by any sportsmobiles on this meet-up.......we were parked on sand where thousands of others have parked for years, maybe decades, depending on the rainfall and where the wash happens to end up in a given year. BTW it's totally fine to pitch your tent in the area where we had the vans parked according to the ranger.

As far as fees paid to this wonderful state of ours, I've personally purchased adventure passes for probably ten years now (since the beginning of the adventure pass), and own three motorcycles that are green stickered (fee generation for the state); these have been required for well over 10 years at this point.....heaven knows what the penalty is for riding a red stickered bike bike during green sticker season is.........

 

[Jeffrey-SMB]

Thanks, Boywonder. I've had my share of Adventure passes, too. I didn't think that group was 'destroying grasses'. That was actually someone else's comment I was simply referring to.

Sorry, Baja, your defensive and whacky replies indicate that you are not able to understand the intent of anything I said. None was being directed at you or any one individual, but stated or implied in a very general manner. I apologize if I was using your statements as a stereotype of the general type of people I was actually addressing. Perhaps some forum members will see that. Others may not. Clearly it's too risky to post concepts like that here. I can't continue this conversation.

 

[dig255]

It is all about the economy. Tickets = revenue.

Issuing tickets justifies the need for Rangers which keeps them employed and over funded.


+1
Do you actually believe that or are you just having fun? I believe, and I'm haven fun!

 

[Ocsmb]

I don't think anyone is arguing over state park rules or why they are in place. Seems like a recurring theme from this trip report and previous ones that the Fish Creek area Ranger(s) could use a chill pill, however.

 

[EMrider]

Re: Anza Borrego over New years (Was Mojave)

Everyone, please put down the beers and the joints........

I promise that no flora of fauna were injured by any sportsmobiles on this meet-up.......we were parked on sand where thousands of others have parked for years, maybe decades, depending on the rainfall and where the wash happens to end up in a given year. BTW it's totally fine to pitch your tent in the area where we had the vans parked according to the ranger.

As far as fees paid to this wonderful state of ours, I've personally purchased adventure passes for probably ten years now (since the beginning of the adventure pass), and own three motorcycles that are green stickered (fee generation for the state); these have been required for well over 10 years at this point.....heaven knows what the penalty is for riding a red stickered bike bike during green sticker season is.........

I dislike taxes as much as anyone, but am a big supporter of user fees. The theory is great. The heaviest users pay the greatest share of the costs.

Having paid for an adventure pass and OHV green sticker fees for decades too, my big beef is that these funds are not being directed at sustaining, protecting and expanding outdoor recreation. Quite a bit of third party analysis shows that these user fees are being re-directed, borrowed or just stolen for other state budgetary purposes.

R

 

[Gooseberry-SMB]

Ok so I have started my look into the laws affecting Highways and parking on or near. I have only found the basic and that is you can not park on or next to a designated highway and must have hazards on and must be gone or removed within 24 hours.

Need more coffee this crap is hard to read


BTW I do not support fees from a Government that has no checks and balance on the money they spend. I do believe with proper accounting ( like what they make us do ) we would find extra and be able to balance the budget.

 

[daveb-SMB]

I agree with the last 3 post as well as some of Jeffery’s and Ramsey’s posts. We need to keep in mind that the land is public land for use by the people but understand the need to camp responsibly and use trail etiquette while doing a run. I support off road parks designed for the more extreme sports as well as OHV routes but also want to be able to experience the remote regions of our country. I think it’s possible to keep routes open and coexist without much harm to nature even though some (and the government) seem to think differently. Anyway it sucks to get slapped in the face when you truly feel like a responsible off roader.
I’m glad you guys were able to work things out with this ranger. Some of them feel like they own the land themselves but most of the rangers I’ve dealt with are good people. Still there’s always one in the bunch who is off kilter a bit.

 

[Elltom]

How'd the Ranger get out there? On foot?

GUILTY AS CHARGED!

200 years ago,
today,
tomorrow.

No need to widen the road each time you drive out.
But spill a drop of paint in the gutter, in the big city, which is basically paint, and get a fine?

:c3: :c3: :c3: :c3: :c3: :c3: :c3: :c3:

 

[REF]

I'm glad this was moved from the trip report, and I guess I'll chime in here to maybe ease some of the angst, as it's sort of turned into something else completely. Politics aside, I felt that in this case the ranger was just doing his job, while we all felt we were abiding by state park rules and camping within the boundaries set, and although we never parked beyond the wash, I think it's fair to say that we all understood our dogs were to be leashed, which they were not, and none of us were ticketed in the end. Another point to make is that the forecast called for rain, and I for one, moved to higher ground out of a low spot along the road after discussing it the night before with Chris, I felt that was probably a good call, if we had had a good rain, I can just imagine the consequences of being in the middle of the wash where the ranger had us move to. The other point to make is that I'm sure that these Rangers deal with all kinds of people in those parts, and just like cops, are trained to approach every situation with caution and with the worst case scenario in mind. Imagine pulling up solo to a scene like that out in the middle of nowhere with a dozen beefed up vans, 2 dozen people and a bunch of dogs running around, it's got to be intimidating, he came in aggressive, announced his presence over his PA and got our attention while he assessed the scene, he mellowed as soon as he realized we weren't a threat or aggressive defensive jagoffs.

 

[Christopher Thwaites]

Ok.....this will be a stream of consciousness comment....... we won't likely have a consensus if we poll everyone who was actually there. 28+ people will have at least 14 opinions. Rick states it perfectly in MY opinion (2 of 14). I think the ongoing rant is healthy and it gives us all an opportunity to vent. I didn't like having to move my van to the other side of the bush to satisfy the ranger's interpretation of the rules but I did it because I didn't want to argue a technicality. Everyone wanted to challenge the Ranger but none of us had actually read the rules as outlined in the brochure he gave us. The brochure says on page 6 " vehicles must be parked no more than 1 vehicle length off the road. Do not trample vegetation or drive over geological features." Some vans WERE more than a vehicle length off the road. No vegetation was driven over or harmed and no geological feature was driven over(well except by my and Gooseberry's RC rock crawlers). I actually encouraged Gooseberry and another van to move off of the road in anticipation of bad weather....which we got....but no flooding. I think we dodged a bullet with regard to the dogs. Having lost my dog last August this was my first trip in 14 years without her. Being a former offender I was surprised at how annoyed I got with almost everyone's dog being off leash. I felt like I was in a dog park most of the time. I buried 5 or 6 piles of poop. BillPa almost lost a perfectly good steak to one of the dogs. Any food at dog level was fair game. Not cool. Not the dog's fault. Had we been confrontational with the ranger my guess is he would have issued tickets for off leash dogs. AND made us move some of the vans. I think none of us move about the world we live in with the intention of breaking laws so it does raise our hackles a bit when it is suggested we are doing just that. I'll be interested in Gooseberry's full study of the vehicle code as it pertains to vehicles parked off of a state highway. All of the roads in Anza Borrego State Park are considered state highways to ensure that only properly licensed vehicles use them. I think we all did our best to abide by the rules. Did we all pack out our toilet paper and human waste??? (see page 6) Think about your off leash dog next time you camp. Walk a mile in the rangers shoes. They used to be docents of the parks. A changing Society, not politicians, made it necessary for them to become cops. Sad. Teach your children just like Lake is being taught to love and respect his world. Owning a Sportsmobile does not make you special.
Chris

 

[PatO-SMB]

I arrived at the Olla Wash camp site Thursday night after most people had left so I am not a first hand witness but do have a few comments. After everyone left Saturday morning; Bill, J&M and the FJ couple, I had a cordial wave and hello with the ranger. I'm quite certain this was the same ranger that 6 weeks ago spent an hour with a group I was with at Blair Valley campground trying to catch and control a loose dog. In the process he was nipped by the animal. He wrote the owner a ticket ($$$'s) for an aggressive dog and banished her from the park for the weekend. As any law enforcement person they do not know what they are getting into when approaching a large group. It would seem prudent to make the approach as described. Also, On the other side of the road where I parked we picked up at least one dog dump, the second one may have been a local critter. If you bring a dog to ABDSP, respect the rules and your fellow campers. There are many other choices if you prefer off leash activities.

 

[daveb-SMB]

<cut> I didn't like having to move my van to the other side of the bush to satisfy the ranger's interpretation of the rules but I did it because I didn't want to argue a technicality. Everyone wanted to challenge the Ranger but none of us had actually read the rules as outlined in the brochure he gave us. The brochure says on page 6 " vehicles must be parked no more than 1 vehicle length off the road. Do not trample vegetation or drive over geological features." Some vans WERE more than a vehicle length off the road. No vegetation was driven over or harmed and no geological feature was driven over <cut> I was surprised at how annoyed I got with almost everyone's dog being off leash. I felt like I was in a dog park most of the time. I think we all did our best to abide by the rules. Did we all pack out our toilet paper and human waste??? (see page 6) Think about your off leash dog next time you camp. Walk a mile in the rangers shoes. They used to be docents of the parks. A changing Society, not politicians, made it necessary for them to become cops. <cut>
Chris

Well Chris I wasn't there and can't comment on your situation down in AB but it does seem like we are all being pushed into a smaller box year after year. When I see where some idiot decides to take their vehicle into a fragile area to spin a brody it pisses me off to see the destruction but it also upsets me because the government agency in charge is probably going to over react and close off the area to everybody. But being restricted in a wash that changes after a storm would seem excessive IMO. I do agree that the rangers are there to enforce the laws set up by government agencies so I don't normally blame them but I have had issues with the overzealous types. I can see where the dog situation could have upset the ranger and can't blame him on that. Really it's the camping location restrictions that are being setup that I have issues with.

I've never been to Anza but if they force you to camp one vehicle length off the trail I doubt I'll ever go there unless they let you camp off spur trails that aren't subjected to the heavier traffic.

[edit] BTW, that spot that you and Ruth camped at on Sonora pass with me is now closed off. They added boulders and now you can't drive to where we camped... what good did that do? It's a paved path for cryin out loud :d7:

 

[Makalu1]

I worked for the National Park Service for 20 years and spent my career working in the backcountry of the western US, particularly in the Rocky Mountain state. I was also marred to a law enforcement ranger for a bunch of years. I can guarantee that there are plenty of idiot, overzealous rangers in all land management agencies that give the rest of the reasonable hardworking ones a bad name. Having waited up at night for my wife to come home from the night shift in the backcountry or simply patrolling established campgrounds, I know firsthand there is no "routine" traffic stop or shift. So I tend to give them all the benefit of the doubt and treat them all with respect, even if they don't always deserve it. Even the aholes might be the one bailing you out of a jam tomorrow.

I agree with Dave that we are getting pushed into a smaller box every year, and sadly that pertains to a lot of what we do on public lands (whether that's state or federal or whatever); I experience that as a hunter, camper, driver, kiter, rockclimber, etc. Even as a professional paleontologist, I have to compete with a slew of other competing interests to get my job done.

That's life in the 21st Century. Bottom line is there are already so many of us living here and more and more every day. This is NOT the same planet or country as it was when I was a kid. I hate sharing "my" backcountry. But I have to now, or go someplace else. I hate it when I go to the place I used to hunt or camp or climb and find locked gages and private property signs, too. But everyone (who can afford it) wants to own their own little piece of heaven and to keep ME out. The nerve!

But on pubic lands we've just got to keep doing our own personal best to keep protecting what's left out there and supporting those whose job it is to do the same. I can also say that most of them get paid crap for what they do and have miniscule budgets to work with. I can't speak for California state lands, but here in Utah the amount of money they get in fines doesn't amount to jack. User fees are a different story.

 

[Pschitt]

I dont want to hijack this thread but just want to give another perception of a European guy.

Compared to Europe, US is a real land of freedom. They are so many public lands, National Parks, State Parks, County Parks, BLM lands... For comparison, in Europe, there is almost no more places you can boondock, all RV are parked in kind of parking lot especially for RV, mostly without restroom or showers... That's really the positive side here, you can boondock in any National Forest, they are primitive campground in so many places on public lands...

The bad side : I was really chocked that everywhere you go, you find garbage and litter, even sometimes in the middle of nowhere after several hours hiking. Not only garbage but also ATV and dirt bike tracks that often last several years before the nature erase those. Almost every day I travel, I see cans or other garbage recently thrown down the same day, people continue just to throw away, despite the signs warning for high fines. You won't never see that in Europe... So I can understand why the box is getting smaller year after year, even if people told me that it's already much better than 20 years ago.

Anyway, I'm convinced that SMB or related vehicle owners are not the most concerned by destroying landscape they travel through. It's definitely more ATV, OVH, dirt bikes or Jeeps who let their tracks everywhere off the trails... But don't forget: it's still much more free here than in every European country...

 

[geoffff]

If you want to step back in time, try Baja California. There are still fewer fences, fewer signs, fewer enforced rules -- and more freedom. And more trash.

But this is changing, with private property restrictions appearing all over the southern cape from Cabo to La Paz. And I don't even bother with anything north of Ensenada.

-- Geoff

 

[rallypanam]

I think the general confusion in this case is that most of us are familiar with National Forest rules and we were camping according to them, but the Anza Borrego rules were contradictory in many aspects.

Guess we should have done more research.

 

[DisabledExplorers]

All the info stated here is why I do everything I can to avoid any recreation in Kalifornia.
Living in Arizona we have plenty of idiots and are getting more and more rules but at least it isn't as bad as Kali.

Speaking of Baja I was there in October and going back in a couple of weeks and often prefer it to the USA.
More open areas to camp, fewer idiots and great food.