MG Metal Works DIY kit knowledge share

[wild-kiwi]

 

[Mikerson]

I too bought some axles! I went for front and rear 4:30 from a 2013. Planning on picking up my MG kit soon! I’m excited to get going on this conversion, but I have some questions for you all.

1) What are people doing for a cross-member? Can one mod the original, or do you need a donor?
2) What year front f250 and f350 driveshafts work for donors?
3) Those of you with the shift-on-the-fly nv273f, What has your experience been? Has it been worth the electrical hassles? I saw that somebody had agile off-road make them a wiring harness. I’ll have to call them and see if that’s still a possibility. Is a DIY install challenging?
4) My van is a 2001 5.4L with the 4r70. If I can find this transmission in 4wd would it be easier/cheaper to just swap that in rather than have my tranny modded at a shop? Any reason why that wouldn’t work?

Wish there was a van icon. cool guy will have to do. Thanks much!

 

[gnty]

Yes, it is a DRW front axle and I expect to keep the rear duallies, at least initially. May go to a rear SRW 10.5" later. I'm chewing on what to do about wheels and wheel bolt patterns. On my last Van I converted the stock rear axle lug bolt pattern from 8x6.5" to 8x170mm using quality adapters. I don't know yet if this is advisable or even possible on a heavy ambulance with duallies.

I did a bunch of checking into this when I did mine, there wasn't a good safe way to ad adapters to a dually to change bolt pattern. So currently my rear is 8 x 6.5 and front is 8 on 170, so I carry a spare for the front as I'm banking I can limp a dually to a tire repair shop.

 

[Brian94ht]

I too bought some axles! I went for front and rear 4:30 from a 2013. Planning on picking up my MG kit soon! I’m excited to get going on this conversion, but I have some questions for you all.

1) What are people doing for a cross-member? Can one mod the original, or do you need a donor?
2) What year front f250 and f350 driveshafts work for donors?
3) Those of you with the shift-on-the-fly nv273f, What has your experience been? Has it been worth the electrical hassles? I saw that somebody had agile off-road make them a wiring harness. I’ll have to call them and see if that’s still a possibility. Is a DIY install challenging?
4) My van is a 2001 5.4L with the 4r70. If I can find this transmission in 4wd would it be easier/cheaper to just swap that in rather than have my tranny modded at a shop? Any reason why that wouldn’t work?

Wish there was a van icon. cool guy will have to do. Thanks much!

Since no one else has chimed in...
1. You will be modifying the cross member in the van using the supplied template. It would be very difficult to remove and replace.
2. You can use either model front DS. It will have to be lengthened. (IIRC)
3. I went through the "electrical hassles" of doing Eshift on a previous conversion. It wasn't much of a hassle really. I would only say its not worth it from the perspective of it only gets you half way there. Shift on the fly would have the hubs lock/unlock too. It can be done. Shifft on the fly is great for snow driving. If you go wheeling or only need 4x4 for when you get stuck manual shift will suffice because you have to get out and lock hubs anyways.
4. If the new tranny is in known good condition sure. Seems like a time saver rather than having to wait for a rebuild.
Nice score on the 4.30's. Keep us updated on your progress.
B

 

[JimGee]

Mikerson:
My last Van was also a 5.4 gas witha 4R75E and some exhaust mods had to be done as the catalytic converters were in the way of the front driveshaft. The amidships gas tank and rear driveshaft have to be shortened to accommodate the transfer case. Ujoint Ofroad has an end plate and template for the gas tank mod.

Brian94ht
Thanks for the comments on your lug bolt pattern decision. The "Limping dually with a Spare" is the easiest solution:d8: Did you explore the option of redrilling either the front or back hubs to match. I know this presents complications on brake rotor replacement and the front unitized bearing hub replacement and one would best have adapted spares. The "Limping Dually" sounds better all the time:e5:
I just bought a 2008 esof T/C with 23K kilometers so those "electrical hassles" are on the horizon. Last time I used the floor shifted NV271F.

 

[Mikerson]

Thanks for the info Brian. I wasn't clear about in my question. I was talking about the transmission cross-member. I see that ujoint sells a unit with drop so the transfer case will clear the van floor. Can you mod the stock cross-member, or should I try to get one off an F-series, or is it worth it to buy one from ujoint?


The donor truck my axle is from had SOTF so, the auto hubs are already there. Does anybody know of a good thread here that discusses SOTF conversion? I need to learn more.

1. You will be modifying the cross member in the van using the supplied template. It would be very difficult to remove and replace.
2. You can use either model front DS. It will have to be lengthened. (IIRC)
3. I went through the "electrical hassles" of doing Eshift on a previous conversion. It wasn't much of a hassle really. I would only say its not worth it from the perspective of it only gets you half way there. Shift on the fly would have the hubs lock/unlock too. It can be done. Shifft on the fly is great for snow driving. If you go wheeling or only need 4x4 for when you get stuck manual shift will suffice because you have to get out and lock hubs anyways.
4. If the new tranny is in known good condition sure. Seems like a time saver rather than having to wait for a rebuild.
Nice score on the 4.30's. Keep us updated on your progress.
B

 

[AdvRob]

As far as the electric shifter goes. You need the t case control switch and control module out of the f series. The vacuum operated hubs are controlled by the same module, so you just need to add the wiring, the solenoid, vacuum, etc. and it should function. Its been a little while since i was studying the wiring diagrams but i recall it all looking pretty simple.
My reaserch was for my generation van swap, i guess i should add that. 2003 e350 eb 7.3td 4r100

 

[AdvRob]

Does anybody know the rear fox shock part number needed?

 

[Jsweezy]

For ESOF info I just went through it all on my van and am willing to help if someone needs it. I'd rather not go through it all unless I need to but if you get the wiring manual for your van and then the one for the truck it came out of you'll be good to go. It's actually very simple, just needs some patience to get it all right.

 

[mgmetalworks]

I will at some point do a write up of the ESOF install with pictures and part numbers list but for the time being, here's a quick run down.

(This is in reference to using controls from a ~2008-2009 NV273...probably the simplest set up there is for this tcase)
You'll need:
-NV273 Transfercase
-Connector for shift motor (available through Motorcraft)
-Connector for encoder motor (available through multiple sources)
-Shift module and grey + black connectors (2008 F250 PN-8C3T-14B205-A
-Mode select switch and connector
-2 12V automotive relays
-small aux fuse panel (I use this rather than trying to find empty fuses in the van)

The tcase has the two wires from the shift motor going to the two relays (we mount relays under the hood, left side of inner fender). Then 6 wires from the encoder motor to where the shift module is located (inside the van).

The switch will get a dash light wire, two wires to the control module and a ground

The shift module will need these inputs:
-12V+
-Ign 12V+
-GND
-VSS (see van's wiring diagram for easiest place to tap into this)
-Neutral indicator (essentially, the module is looking for a ground when in park or neutral)
-Brake switch

The module outputs to:
-4wd hi light (this wire goes to ground when in 4 hi)
-4wd lo light (this wire goes to ground when in 4 lo)
-6 wires to encoder
-2 wires to the vacuum hub solenoid
-2 wires to the mode select switch
-2 wires to control the relays

The vacuum hub solenoid has the two inputs from the shift module plus a 12V+ source. You "T" into the vacuum line running across the top of the firewall (it goes back behind the heater to a vacuum reservoir) and run the vacuum line to the solenoid. The other line splits to the two hubs. check valves before the solenoid and after the solenoid but before the split to the two hubs are needed (just like Fseries set up).

That's all there is to it.

 

[Mikerson]

MG answered my question this past weekend. So I wanted to share it with other folks converting a 5.4 with 4r70. The stock 6.8L and 6.0L cross members are already 4" longer to clear the front drive shaft. Since the 4R70 is shorter though, you have to add a 4" block to space it back to the right location. I'll be on the lookout for a stocker from a 6.0L or 6.8L.

I was talking about the transmission cross-member.

 

[mgmetalworks]

MG answered my question this past weekend. So I wanted to share it with other folks converting a 5.4 with 4r70. The stock 6.8L and 6.0L cross members are already 4" longer to clear the front drive shaft. Since the 4R70 is shorter though, you have to add a 4" block to space it back to the right location. I'll be on the lookout for a stocker from a 6.0L or 6.8L.

Just a little clarification cuz when I read this ^^^, I don't see the whole picture

When you are installing our radius arm brackets on a van with a 5.4L/4R75 trans, the radius arm bracket bolts to the frame where the trans cross member goes (the trans cross member sits farther forward on the frame than the other configs). The 4R75 cross member also sits up higher than the 4R100 and 5R110W. What needs to happen is that cross member has to move back behind the radius arm brackets (new holes drilled in frame) and the mount will have to drop down. On Jsweezy's van, he used a cross member from a V10 van (to get the drop down) and then fabricated an extension to bring the trans mount holes forward (the cross member is shifted back now but the trans mount holes have to come forward a bit to line up with the new tailhousing). He also made a relief in the cross member to give the front driveshaft more clearance.

There are few guys out there who've done this and if you have any pics, it would be helpful to post here.

 

[E350-SMB]

I will at some point do a write up of the ESOF install with pictures and part numbers list but for the time being, here's a quick run down.

(This is in reference to using controls from a ~2008-2009 NV273...probably the simplest set up there is for this tcase)
You'll need:
-NV273 Transfercase
-Connector for shift motor (available through Motorcraft)
-Connector for encoder motor (available through multiple sources)
-Shift module and grey + black connectors (2008 F250 PN-8C3T-14B205-A
-Mode select switch and connector
-2 12V automotive relays
-small aux fuse panel (I use this rather than trying to find empty fuses in the van)

The tcase has the two wires from the shift motor going to the two relays (we mount relays under the hood, left side of inner fender). Then 6 wires from the encoder motor to where the shift module is located (inside the van).

The switch will get a dash light wire, two wires to the control module and a ground

The shift module will need these inputs:
-12V+
-Ign 12V+
-GND
-VSS (see van's wiring diagram for easiest place to tap into this)
-Neutral indicator (essentially, the module is looking for a ground when in park or neutral)
-Brake switch

The module outputs to:
-4wd hi light (this wire goes to ground when in 4 hi)
-4wd lo light (this wire goes to ground when in 4 lo)
-6 wires to encoder
-2 wires to the vacuum hub solenoid
-2 wires to the mode select switch
-2 wires to control the relays

The vacuum hub solenoid has the two inputs from the shift module plus a 12V+ source. You "T" into the vacuum line running across the top of the firewall (it goes back behind the heater to a vacuum reservoir) and run the vacuum line to the solenoid. The other line splits to the two hubs. check valves before the solenoid and after the solenoid but before the split to the two hubs are needed (just like Fseries set up).

That's all there is to it.

Micheal: Brilliant as always. Hopefully you have the time and the inclination to answer my specific question below.

My New Year's resolution was to have no more broken stuff. The Dakota, the Bronco and even the Corolla are all or are all nearly dialed, so I am stoked to start working on my van again.

Here's my specific question. My 2002 E350 7.3PSD Ext. van has the Borg Warner 1356 in the manual shift version. It slipped out of gear within the Salem-Kroeger warranty period and they replaced the shift forks. And it worked for a year or two, but later started happening again. I believe that the linkage is putting stress on the shift forks as the van body twists and wears down the plastic shift fork tips.

My 1995 Bronco and my 1993 Bronco before that also have (had) the BW 1356 but in the electric shift version - which I never ever had any problems with. I can get a used BW 1356 electric shift for relatively little money, but my desire is to use the 2007 F250 vacuum hubs which Salem-Kroeger installed (I have the 2007 F250 oem shop manual) by installing all of the requisite gear which you mentioned in your excellent post above.

The tail shaft on my van's originally 2x4 4r100 transmission was "replaced/modified" to attach to the BW 1356. Can I / should I just install a NP 273 electric shift instead of a BW 1356 electric shift? That way I would be doing the full conversion you mention in your post above, rather than doing some modified version of the Bronco-type BW 1356 electric shift with the 2007 F250 vacuum hubs?

I know I am asking for allot of free advice here. And I will respect you if you think I am asking too much.

 

[mgmetalworks]

Micheal: Brilliant as always. Hopefully you have the time and the inclination to answer my specific question below.

My New Year's resolution was to have no more broken stuff. The Dakota, the Bronco and even the Corolla are all or are all nearly dialed, so I am stoked to start working on my van again.

Here's my specific question. My 2002 E350 7.3PSD Ext. van has the Borg Warner 1356 in the manual shift version. It slipped out of gear within the Salem-Kroeger warranty period and they replaced the shift forks. And it worked for a year or two, but later started happening again. I believe that the linkage is putting stress on the shift forks as the van body twists and wears down the plastic shift fork tips.

My 1995 Bronco and my 1993 Bronco before that also have (had) the BW 1356 but in the electric shift version - which I never ever had any problems with. I can get a used BW 1356 electric shift for relatively little money, but my desire is to use the 2007 F250 vacuum hubs which Salem-Kroeger installed (I have the 2007 F250 oem shop manual) by installing all of the requisite gear which you mentioned in your excellent post above.

The tail shaft on my van's originally 2x4 4r100 transmission was "replaced/modified" to attach to the BW 1356. Can I / should I just install a NP 273 electric shift instead of a BW 1356 electric shift? That way I would be doing the full conversion you mention in your post above, rather than doing some modified version of the Bronco-type BW 1356 electric shift with the 2007 F250 vacuum hubs?

I know I am asking for allot of free advice here. And I will respect you if you think I am asking too much.

Auto hubs are essentially a separate system from the t-case...and don't overcomplicate things....it's a very simple system. Hubs, vacuum lines, solenoid, check valves, that's it. ESOF modules can control the vacuum hub solenoid as in the case of the 2008-vintage NV273 controller but all that's going on is that a "valve" is being turned on and off when 4wd is engaged. Many ways to get that sort of thing to happen.

On rigs with manual shift tcases, we've set up the auto hubs by just plumbing in the solenoid and wiring in a switch (technically, the switch triggers a relay which then handles the load of the solenoid). If you wanted to get really fancy, you could trigger the relay using the 4wd indicator switch on the manual shift tcases...

In cases where we're doing stand alone auto hubs, we've used the vacuum solenoid from the F150. It's a continuous duty solenoid that is basically just on or off. Two wires (power and ground), two vacuum lines (1.From van vacuum source, 2. To hubs). If you're going the route of the NV273, use the F250 solenoid since that's what the whole system is designed to work with and behaves a little differently than the continuous duty part.

I don't have a lot of experience with the BW tcases. I'm not sure what ESOF module they use and I've not looked at a wiring diagram for one. They're probably very similar to the NV273 controls-wise though. Seems to me like swapping in a BW would be a simple task in your case.

 

[E350-SMB]

10-4. Thank you mgmetalworks !

Your design and implementation is always top notch.

In comparison, Salem-Kroeger ran the ESOF hubs off the serpentine belt driven vacuum pump on the 7.3L, giving an uncontrolled vacuum which sucked in and broke my hubs.

I notice that the F150 vacuum solenoid you use (and what is specified in the 2007 Ford F250 oem shop manual) supplies an initial burst of vacuum to suck in the hubs to engage them, and then drops to less vacuum to keep them engaged.

An electric shift BW 1356 is easy and cheap and, in my case, a direct replacement for what is in the van now. And I have the 1995 Ford Bronco oem Electrical and Vacuum Troubleshooting Manual, so even I can probably figure out and duplicate the wiring for the electric shift BW 1356 for the van.

Thanks again, big time!

 

[E350-SMB]

mgmetalworks: OK I was wrong. Crawling around under the van and the Bronco and comparing the two, I see that the Bronco's BW 1356 Transfer Case has a flanged output shaft while the van's BW 1356 Transfer Case output shaft is a spline-type shaft.

So Salem-Kroger modified the tail shaft on the BW 1356 in the van to make it a spline slip yoke to accommodate the driveline's extension/contraction as the rear differential moves up and down.

Looking at the 2002 Workshop Manual for the Excursion, F-Super Duty 250, 350, 450 550 Volume 2, the NP Transfer Cases use a flanged output shaft to connect to the driveline, just like the Bronco.

The Bronco and the F Series Super Duty's use a mid-driveline splined slip yoke to create the necessary extension/contraction.

So buying an electric shift BW 1356 is not going to be an easy replacement for the failed manual BW 1356 in my van.

MG, what do you use on your 4x4 van conversions?

Do you use the normal flanged output shaft from the NP Transfer Case and then just toss the E-Series driveline and have an F Series type mid-driveline splined slip yoke driveshaft made for the van?

Or do you have the output shaft from the NP Transfer Case modified to a slip output shaft and just shorten the E Series driveline and use it?

Sorry to be back so soon with more questions, but I trust your design over Salem-Kroger.

Finally, will the NP Transfer Case say a NP 273 electric shift bolt up to the output of the 2002 E350 2x4 4R100 Transmission without modification?

And do you sell NP Transfer Cases or can you recommend a good source for them?

 

[wild-kiwi]

Fox Shocks par number for rear shocks?


Anyone got the correct part Number for the rear Fox 2.0 shocks post lift.


Thanks

 

[wild-kiwi]

Fox Shocks part number for rear shocks?

Fox Shocks part number for rear shocks?


Anyone got the correct part Number for the rear Fox 2.0 shocks post lift.


Thanks

 

[Fork-N-Road]

Fox Shocks part number for rear shocks?


Anyone got the correct part Number for the rear Fox 2.0 shocks post lift.


Thanks

I'm running Fox 985-24-061 with MG 4x4 conversion and Agile rear leaf springs (~6" lift).


I bought my shocks and had them custom valved by Agile Off Road in San Diego. Custom valving didn't cost a lot more and definitely improved the ride on and off road.

 

[wild-kiwi]

4x4 Expedition Van Project progress...


My MG Metal Works project is coming along really nicely, and I must say how much I am enjoying doing this... neighbors maybe not so much...


https://www.facebook.com/4x4-Expedition-Van-Project-2421379148121143/