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Old 09-18-2018, 06:49 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by REDOVAL View Post
The mounts I used are from Quick Fist called the Minis. For what it's worth, the mount that comes with the extinguisher is quite nice. It would be ideal to have the option to buy two as they come with just one. My application needed the flexible mount provided by the rubber minis.

Scott
I just tried installing the Quick Fist Mini's onto the Element 50's---wow what a super snug fit, almost too snug for me. They do afford flexible mounting options which is absolutely great.

I might try a set of the Original Quick Fist's just to compare. And yes the included clips with the Element 50's are very nice too.
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Old 10-02-2018, 06:52 AM   #102
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https://expeditionportal.com/what-we-can-learn-from-the-jeep-fire-video/
this popped up on expeditionportal recently...hopefully two Elements are sufficient for a van?!?
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Old 10-02-2018, 10:54 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by unreng View Post
https://expeditionportal.com/what-we-can-learn-from-the-jeep-fire-video/
this popped up on expeditionportal recently...hopefully two Elements are sufficient for a van?!?
It would either be more than enough or way too little---circumstances would dictate the right amount to have on-board.

I'll carry two mostly for ease of access---one on the driver's seat base and another on the passenger side rear door.

Of course we all hope to NEVER have to use them!
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Old 10-02-2018, 12:00 PM   #104
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I'll be ordering a couple this week, but as an aside, there is also this technology,


If they have already been mentioned, sorry, I haven't had time to read the entire thread. They look effective, but are way too big for easy storage in a van.
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Old 10-02-2018, 12:34 PM   #105
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Those fire balls are neat but very limited in the environments when they would operate as shown. As mentioned in the video they work in enclosed areas but also need to rely on a clear path to the fire as the medium is a powder that cannot go around corners like a gas does. These fire balls got a lot of social media traction because of how dramatic they are so a number of videos went pretty viral about them.

There is even a video online that shows someone cut one open to see what is inside. Essentially it is a hollow foam ball with a combination of fire extinguisher powder and an explosive charge. The ball has a wick that feeds the center and is then covered by the bright red plastic shrink wrap on the outside. When it goes into a fire the plastic wrap burns off and lights the wick making the whole thing like a cartoon bomb that explodes when the contents inside are ignited. Quite clever but lacks the directed control you can achieve with a hand-held extinguisher so it is very much an all or nothing tool.
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Old 10-02-2018, 02:18 PM   #106
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It would either be more than enough or way too little---circumstances would dictate the right amount to have on-board.

I'll carry two mostly for ease of access---one on the driver's seat base and another on the passenger side rear door.

Of course we all hope to NEVER have to use them!
Can we theorize further at how many extinguishers are prudent for a given "fuel load?" Re expeditionportal article: "itís vital to keep a fire extinguisher (appropriate to the size of the vehicle and fuel load)"

I've two fuel tanks, roughly equal size, total capacity 54 gals. I also may carry up to four 5-gal metal NATO cans of gas during hurricane evacuations (and I hope, in future, during longer remote treks). At the moment, I carry these inside the van as they're vapor-tight, fairly impact resistant (according to a vendor video demonstrating abuse like driving over them and tossing them down rocky inclines), and I don't have an external gear box yet.

What would a worst case scenario look like, where the total fuel carried is at risk of contributing to a fire? ... some event that penetrates the fuel tanks (van rolls off a high cliff, or van lands HARD on a sharp rock that penetrates tank) with a spark generated when rock strikes steel?

Under what scenario might the fuel in an intact tank be vulnerable to flames in or near the van?

The jeep video and EP article are notable for calling attention to the importance of preventing the spread of fire in the environment, a "worst case" that could overshadow loss of the vehicle itself. Fuel load could make a big difference here.

For the exercise, let's presume someone remains alive and able to access extinguishers. :-)
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Old 10-02-2018, 06:31 PM   #107
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Without attempting to answer achop's question above (one we routinely deal with in the refinery in our fire pre-plans) I thought I would simply show what I did to place two Elements in my Sprinter. I will note that handheld extinguishers are typically used for incipient fires, which means at the beginning. With the fuel load achop describes it most likely wouldn't take me long to revert to Plan B, which in my case would be to be glad the insurance premium was paid for! Element, looking forward to your learned comments on this one.


My standard ABC extinguisher is mounted on the passenger's seat base just inside the side slider. This unit sometimes finds its way to the side of a campfire and is easily accessible by opening the slider and reaching inside. This unit has the advantage of "familiarity" and thus it is available for anyone to see and use when we are stopped and set up.


While simple, some training is required to understand how to use the Element. If someone has never seen one they will not know what to do with them in a panic situation. My wife and I both know how to use them and there is one mounted just inside each of the two front doors, thus visible and easily accessible from either side. I ordered the magnetic mounts when I ordered the units, you can see in the pictures how simple the installation is:



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Old 10-02-2018, 11:31 PM   #108
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Those fire balls are neat but very limited in the environments when they would operate as shown.
They clearly would not be ideal in a van for several reasons, but it's certainly a unique design.

Achop: I don't believe any hand held extinguisher would be adequate if all that gas were to start burning, you would probably need a fire truck. Never the less, once you have a fire start, having more than one extinguisher is always a good idea. I once used 6 extinguishers on a small boat fire and would have liked more.
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Old 10-03-2018, 06:44 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Element View Post
Those fire balls are neat but very limited in the environments when they would operate as shown. As mentioned in the video they work in enclosed areas but also need to rely on a clear path to the fire as the medium is a powder that cannot go around corners like a gas does. These fire balls got a lot of social media traction because of how dramatic they are so a number of videos went pretty viral about them.
More great info from our newly drafted fire extinguisher resident contributor!

Quote:
Originally Posted by achop View Post
Can we theorize further at how many extinguishers are prudent for a given "fuel load?" Re expeditionportal article: "itís vital to keep a fire extinguisher (appropriate to the size of the vehicle and fuel load)"
Not read that article but did it offer any suggestions or formula to determine what is appropriate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by achop View Post
What would a worst case scenario look like, where the total fuel carried is at risk of contributing to a fire? ... some event that penetrates the fuel tanks (van rolls off a high cliff, or van lands HARD on a sharp rock that penetrates tank) with a spark generated when rock strikes steel?

Under what scenario might the fuel in an intact tank be vulnerable to flames in or near the van?

For the exercise, let's presume someone remains alive and able to access extinguishers. :-)
IMHO any intact fuel container would be a fairly low priority, naturally the first being the fire's origination and it being extinguished ASAP. Perhaps worth addressing at this time would be WHERE are the extra fuel containers stowed, how easily are they accessed and moved away to a safer distance?

If I carried any extra fuel of any type inside the van during transportation they'd be accessible by simply reaching inside a rear door, no further than the arms extend while standing on the ground outside of the van. If they're deeply enough inside it requires going inside DON'T----not until the fire is completely out regardless where it began.

So the where fuel is stowed might become something to consider and change as needed--just a thought........

Intact under-body fuel tanks unless directly over top of a flame tend to be "safe" for a short time, enough that they don't have to be a major consideration at first discovery of a fire. Once I had addressed the extra fuel issue and deployed an Element I'd carefully jump between monitoring the actual fire and the under-body tanks, possibly with a conventional ABC pressurized extinguisher at the ready. The benefit of that type under the vehicle would be effectively extending our own reach (keeping us at a "safe" distance) and being able to direct the pressure blast directly at any source of flame.

Keep in mind the ABC type extinguishers are available in up to 20 pound cylinders. Those are cumbersome to be certainly BUT for all that extra fuel on-board it might be a worthwhile consideration.

We've not directly answered the question "how much, how many?" we should carry. As ArcticTraveler shows he went through 6 and wished for more. Of course if you have the space and money fire extinguishers up to 150 pounds are available.
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Old 10-03-2018, 07:26 AM   #110
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Fitz nailed it best when he noted that handheld extinguishers, regardless of brand or type, are for 'incipient' fires. The most common myth that we deal with on a day to day basis is the belief that a handheld extinguisher will put out a large fire. The real value in a hand held is to tackle a blaze as it is starting in those critical moments before it starts to gain real power. This is why something accessible and available becomes THE most important part of the equation. A good extinguisher that takes time to get to is of very little use in an emergency.

Regarding what constitutes a 'large' fire this is difficult to quantify as fire is incredibly changeable and no two fires are the same. That said one of the testing labs we work with summed it up pretty good. They told us that under perfect laboratory conditions, with a trained fire fighter operating a 10lb ABC extinguisher (already a pretty big bottle), that a one person couch like a Laz-E-boy on fire would have about a 60% chance of putting it out. From the outside this is not a huge looking fire but it goes to show the real world challenges of fire fighting.
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