Another Inverter Selection Question

[JWA]

Wow---pretty amazing and fascinating discussion here---thanks everyone for chipping in. Glider thank you especially for sharing your research!

My installation will be dirt plain simple since chassis battery power will be the only source the inverter will ever see. Even so I see how the construction of the device and how it handles shore power, switching and pass-through power should be a concern regardless. We never really know what changes we'll make in the future so having something that can grow into another or additional use is smart.

I've got some websites to visit now!

[arctictraveller]

Originally Posted by Glider

b. Samlex does something rather special with their inverters. Samlex offers not only the type of transfer switch noted above, but they also build in a transfer switch that allows the inverter to manage the selection between shore power and generator. !

What's the point of that? I would think that 110V at the panel input would be the same no matter where it came from, with no need for another transfer switch. I know that some inverters have a circuit that will start the generator once the battery voltage reaches a certain point, is that what you are talking about?

[ShuttlePilot]

I have had a personal rule up to this point to never buy or use an inverter that is housed in an extruded aluminum case. I've been burned a few times, people I've talked to have been burned, and it always seems to be an inverter in an extruded aluminum case. No mater who makes it. Even the trusted brands. I understand everyone's mileage may be different.

JWA, yes Morninstar only makes the one 300watt inverter. Their mainly solar controller manufacturers. Their solar controllers are respected as reliable over the highly marketed competitors. There is always talk here and there that they are going to offer larger inverters but not yet. The main reasons I mentioned them for your intent is, see above paragraph, and I know a few folks that have been using them for a few years. One is in a well traveled jeep to charge cameras, computers, drones etc. That system is as simple as battery, fuse, switch, inverter, plug strip wired to inverter. Another is an off grid cabin that has a very large Schneider inverter for large demands and the shop, but use the little 300 watt (wired to a dedicated outlet, not through the panel) because the big Schneider consumes a lot of power internally to just charge a laptop or something small.

I'm more apt to try something new myself than to recommend something unkown to someone else. Again see first paragraph.

-Eric

[1der]

Originally Posted by arctictraveller

What's the point of that? I would think that 110V at the panel input would be the same no matter where it came from, with no need for another transfer switch. I know that some inverters have a circuit that will start the generator once the battery voltage reaches a certain point, is that what you are talking about?

Jeff, the Samlex EVO units have three non-battery inputs and manages amongst those. (This is not your father's inverter, lol!) The three are SHORE, GEN, and SOLAR. Bit of overkill for our van but whatever. For a boat or large RV, solar array at home with battery backup, or for backup power this would be the ticket. For JWA's application this unit is clearly not necessary.

From Samlex:
AC Inputs
Two separate AC inputs – one for grid (priority #1), one for generator (priority #2), connect simultaneously, no need to reconfigure when different power sources are available.
Generator Input is specifically designed to have more tolerance for wave form distortion, prevents unnecessary “rejection of AC input and switch to inverter” by tolerating distorted wave forms that can be produced by gritty generators
Each AC input is programmable for voltage and frequency. User determines what the min and max thresholds are to switch from Grid or Generator to Inverter.
Generator start can be initiated by “Status Relay” contact, can be programmed to activate when grid is lost.

Solar Input
Connect a solar charge controller directly to the EVO though the Battery Charger external DC Input, seamlessly integrates solar charging into the EVO’s power system.
ONLINE Mode can be used to prioritize Batteries/Inverter over the grid, ideal for those wishing to operate primarily on solar power (when the grid is available, but might be costly).

Transfer Switch
Zero transfer time when switching from Inverter to Grid. When grid comes on, the inverter synchronizes with the wave form and then transfers instantly at zero crossing.
<16ms transfer when going from Grid to Inverter. When grid is lost, the transfer relay switches to inverter at the correct place in the wave form, the transfer takes less than 16ms.

Battery Charger
3 or 4 stage charging with Equalization (must be manually initiated).
Adaptive algorithm is used during Bulk to assess the condition of the battery. Subsequent stages are then based on the condition of the battery rather than pre-set time periods for Absorption and Float. Prevents unnecessary charging, extends the life of batteries.
Programmable – set battery voltage thresholds to initiate charging.


State-of-the-Art Technology
The EVO operates at 165 million instructions per second producing lightning fast load and response times
The EVO is practically indestructible. It has “Bullet-Proof Intelligence” in the form of 9 physical points of protection monitoring being scanned up to 10,000 times per second for adverse conditions. The EVO will detect fault conditions and initiate a healthy shutdown before any product damage can be done.
The EVO-RC remote control (sold separately) can be used to capture detailed EVO performance data. Records all detected faults and the conditions leading up to them. Data is stored on a removable 16GB SD Card (in the remote). Use data to analyze trends for more efficient use of system resources
The EVO uses five temperature sensors placed throughout the unit to determine operation of 2 speed controlled cooling fans. Reduces unnecessary fan noise and energy consumption by only running when and where the fans are needed.

[JWA]

Eric thanks for that input---very useful especially now that I review Morningstar's spec sheet a bit deeper; I like what I read there.

I might have missed what sort of overload protection is provided? I'm 99.99% certain I'll never approach the 300 Watt max but if I did there's some sort of internal breaker?

IF I went with one in an extruded aluminum case I'll keep your ideas of hot surfaces in mind. Most spec sheets call for clearance of about 3" minimum. That tells me your being burned isn't necessarily a fluke.

Thanks again!


J W

[ShuttlePilot]

JWA, burned, as in I bought several because of good marketing and they all failed. Miserably. Very sorry for the confusion.

-Eric

[JWA]

Originally Posted by ShuttlePilot

JWA, burned, as in I bought several because of good marketing and they all failed. Miserably. Very sorry for the confusion.

-Eric

'Sokay Eric---I too have contributed my share of confusion---here and elsewhere too!

[Glider]

I just got off the phone with Kyle, one of the lead techs for AIMS, and I wanted to pass along what I learned.

1. Pass-Through (or Bypass) Power
This bit references the exchange I had with 1der in #18 and #19, above, regarding passing shore/generator power directly through the inverter to a 110v power panel in the van.

a. The 2000 watt AIMS inverter/charger has a 30 amp breaker on the bypass circuit. However, only 20 amps gets through to the panel. The other 10 amps is diverted to the charger.

b. The board on this inverter is powered by the house batteries, which means two things: 1) In order to use bypass power, the inverter does need to be switched on. 2) If the house battery voltage goes below 10v--and the capacitors inside the inverter have had 24 hours to discharge--the board will not light up. The inverter will need to be "jump started" with an external 12v power source. That's a potential downside. On the other hand, if that happened, one could always fire up the van's engine and have an instant 12v at the house batteries, so the downside potential is rather small, at least from my perspective.

Kyle noted that the reason that AIMS made the decision to power the board with the 12v input is that it significantly decreased the cost of manufacturing, and significantly decreased the heat output of the unit. An interesting tradeoff.

2. Fans. The AIMS unit has a variable speed fan, so it only runs as needed, based on the temperature of the unit.

3. Sales and Tech Support. AIMS is represented, on the sales side, by The Inverter Store. The sales staff there is not as knowledgeable as I would want them to be. I bypass them, and call tech support, which connects me to the guys who design and build the inverters. Kyle can be reached at 775-851-8639.

A couple more notes:
1. I'm a perpetual student. I love learning, and I love exploring ideas. To Eric's note, and just to be clear: I am not in any way endorsing or recommending any particular inverter or anything else. I am sharing what I have learned and what I am thinking about with a community of smart folks for whom I have tremendous respect. We each make our own choices, based on our knowledge, skills, and use cases. This forum gives us a place to share what we learn along the way, and for that I am most appreciative.

2. Of all of the inverters that I have looked at, the Samlex is the coolest with respect to the number of features they pack into the box. They were at the top of my list until I had a poor run-in with their tech folks. Perhaps that was a singular experience--just a bad day. I don't know. Their technology certainly seems impressive.

This has been a great conversation. Thanks, everyone!

[TeleSteve]

Great information on inverters in this thread.

JWA have you considered just using a vehicle battery charger and not stepping up to 110v with an inverter only to have the charger step back down for the tool battery voltage? I think you mentioned Milwaukee tools but, most of the major tool brands offer battery chargers that are powered from 12v.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwauke...duct_301809847

[Glider]

Originally Posted by TeleSteve

Great information on inverters in this thread.

JWA have you considered just using a vehicle battery charger and not stepping up to 110v with an inverter only to have the charger step back down for the tool battery voltage? I think you mentioned Milwaukee tools but, most of the major tool brands offer battery chargers that are powered from 12v.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwauke...duct_301809847

Geez...I was so entertained by getting into inverter minutiae that I totally missed the simple solution! Funny part is that TeleSteve's solution is exactly what I did for charging the DeWalt drill that I keep in the van. I found a 12v DeWalt charger on ebay for something like twenty bucks...works great. And I failed to even think about it in response to JWA's original question.

I nominate TeleSteve for the inverter award.