Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 07-06-2018, 01:43 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Arizona
Posts: 129
Quad cooling fans

Stumbled on this ad below - No affiliation.

Any one tried this on here? Are the MPG gains real? I think the HP gains advertised is BS!

I do not have any cooling issues on my 6.0 even in AZ heat. But just curios if any one has experience with this and if the their are MPG gains indeed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-ECONOL...NSRwtN&vxp=mtr
__________________

karma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2018, 02:22 PM   #2
Site Team
 
BroncoHauler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Southern New Mexico
Posts: 8,912
"...is good for 10-15% more miles to the gallon of gas along with freeing up 10-15 horsepower on the v8 and v10 and up to 20hp on the powerstrokes and it will reduce the stress placed on the engine and extend your water pump life."

With my existing factory setup, if I don't feel a decrease in power when the fan clutch kicks in, why would I expect to see a power increase with this system that takes the mechanical fan out of the equation? OK when the fan clutch is disengaged, I imagine there's still some amount of parasitic loss, but I can't see gaining "up to" 20HP back. But "up to" could mean I see a 0.1HP improvement and couldn't challenge the claim.

I can see the logic behind this, and there are reasons it will help, but it's the return on investment I question. In a race car this makes sense, a factory vehicle, I'm not so sure.

Oh, and "....Save 30lbs of dead weight off the front end..." not sure what comprises that 30lbs of that weight.


Herb
__________________

__________________
SMB-less as of 02/04/2012. Our savings account is richer, but our adventures are poorer.
BroncoHauler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2018, 03:42 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
TomsBeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Brentwood, CA
Posts: 860
I'll play the Devil's Advocate here, Herb;

I was talking to one of my engine builder/race car buds this morning... he routinely finds another 5%-10% more carnkshaft HP by only removing the fan belt (measured on a calibrated engine dynomometer) A-B-A testing. So I believe turning a big automotive fan does take measurable power. It's been a while since I had mine off, but it's a heavy son of a gun, I could see the Ford fan and fan clutch weighing 30lbs. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

Oh, (tongue in cheek) let's not forget that my wallet will be lighter by $500 (If I carried $1's, saved for Saturday night at the strip club, that could be as much as 500grams...) so lets call it 31lbs That's on the positive side, in favor of the advertiser.

On the negative side, the new fans and shroud weigh something, maybe not 30lbs, but call it 10lbs. So net weight savings is only ~20lbs. 21lbs (0.2%) will make an infinitesimal difference in fuel economy on a 9000lb rig, you'd never see it in a calculation. I'm certain my handling will not noticeably improve, or my springs ever notice a difference. Let's not even think about negligible tire wear difference and savings. We're talkin' 'run the engine 2qts low and trans 1 qt low on oil, empty the washer bottle and empty the ashtray' kind of weight difference. I only mention it because its fun. 30A to run the new fans comes from somewhere, that would be the alternator charging more, and coasting less, to re-fill the battery (all things electrical, being equal). No free lunch as my old physics teacher used to preach. My educated guess? Generating 30A's 12vdc when the fans come on, causes less parasitic loss, than a mechanical fan. I can't prove it, other than to say the OEMs have all gone to electric fans, many to electric power steering pumps and assist to improve fuel economy. Could it be worth 1 mpg on a 12mpg example. It's possible on a hot day IMO

My conclusion is it's probably not BS, but I agree that I'd have to see data before parting with my $500

Quote:
Originally Posted by BroncoHauler View Post
"...is good for 10-15% more miles to the gallon of gas along with freeing up 10-15 horsepower on the v8 and v10 and up to 20hp on the powerstrokes and it will reduce the stress placed on the engine and extend your water pump life."

With my existing factory setup, if I don't feel a decrease in power when the fan clutch kicks in, why would I expect to see a power increase with this system that takes the mechanical fan out of the equation? OK when the fan clutch is disengaged, I imagine there's still some amount of parasitic loss, but I can't see gaining "up to" 20HP back. But "up to" could mean I see a 0.1HP improvement and couldn't challenge the claim.

I can see the logic behind this, and there are reasons it will help, but it's the return on investment I question. In a race car this makes sense, a factory vehicle, I'm not so sure.

Oh, and "....Save 30lbs of dead weight off the front end..." not sure what comprises that 30lbs of that weight.


Herb
__________________
1995 E350 7.3 Diesel, 4x4 high roof camper, UJOR 4" lift
TomsBeast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2018, 09:03 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
carringb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Corvallis, OR
Posts: 4,277
The stock cooling fan most definitely takes some serious power to spin. But you'd never feel unless 1) the fan is fully engaged, 2) you're already at WOT, 3) You're running at a high RPM where the fan causes even more drag. I think 20 HP is actually pretty conservative, at full engagement, high RPM operating.

That said.... Mine rarely needs to fully engage. It might do that on when it's 100+F degress and I keep the A/C basting while pulling a 7% grade at 4500 RPM. And even then it won't engage fully until I'm near the top. But when it does, it'll drop my speed a good 5 MPH. But.... It stays on for a while too, which makes for some pretty excellent engine braking.

As for fuel economy... compared to a functional fan clutch.... you won't see any gains. Those gains might be achievable on a cooling system with an always-on fan, like diesel pusher buses have. Or an older rig with no fan clutch. But considering how seldom our fans are fully engage, those gains would be negligible at best. Even efficiency gained by not turning the fan will be lost in charging the battery.

That all said.... electric fans cool better at idle. For somebody doing a lots of stop and go driving, A/C performance would probably be improved. And these probably move more air than a single electric fan, but I'd still be cautious towing very heavy trailers, in case the quad fans still don't move as much air as the stock fan.

FWIW - Ford installs an aux single electric fan on E-series with the "Gulf State Ambulance Package" to improve A/C performance at idle.
__________________
2000 E350 extended wagon dually
V10 w/ Banks Powerpack, Diablo Predator
Buckstop Outback bumper/grill guard
Reunel rear bumper
carringb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2018, 09:14 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Bbasso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Western North Carolina
Posts: 1,258
I used to take off the p/s belt occasionally for more fun, way back with a Mazda I had.
I agree with more hp without the fan being spun and possibly less water pump wear n tear. But the price, ouch.
__________________
Rob.
Current:
2001 E350 PSD w/ a bunch of stuff.
And had three other E350s...
Bbasso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2018, 10:51 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
arctictraveller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,915
The HP needed to spin the fan can be very surprising. On the Youtube series, Engine masters, they ran a lot of different aftermarket fans on dyno runs and discovered that it can take as many as 30hp to run the fan. They felt there was always a gain when switching to an electric fan set-up, but I question how many more horsepower it takes to power the alternators additional load. I do know that switching off my A/C when climbing a grade can be the difference between needing to downshift, or pulling the grade in the next higher gear. At a minimum it can mean having the ability to accelerate verses gradually loosing speed in the same gear.
__________________
Arctic Traveller
KC6TNI
2001 GTRV
Advanced 4wd
Agile Ride improvement package
www.arctictraveller.com
arctictraveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2018, 02:39 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Rodeo, Ca.
Posts: 104
About a hundred years ago when I was actively car racing I recall picking my car up from the tuner and him letting me know that pulling the alternator was good for 7hp on the dyno. It's amazing the parasitic drain of all the stuff strapped to the front of an engine.
motoidiot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2018, 05:41 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
winmag4582001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 224
Electric fans add up to 20hp
Combined with my tune download at 50hp
Paired with the ebay resistor I added at the MAF sensor at 75hp
K&N filter adds 15hp

My stock 2010 5.4L should be cranking 415+hp now with absolutely NO physical internal changes! LOL

FWIW, car manufacturer's are not leaving HP out of their vehicles. HP sells vehicles and attracts people to their product. Fuel economy sells fleet vehicles.
__________________
2010 Ford E350 EB 6" Weldtec Lift
2017 Subaru Legacy
1990 Volvo 240GL
2x 1987 BMW 535is
1995 BMW 540i6
winmag4582001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2018, 06:33 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
MountainBikeRoamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: OrangeCounty, CA
Posts: 1,250
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by winmag4582001 View Post
FWIW, car manufacturer's are not leaving HP out of their vehicles. HP sells vehicles and attracts people to their product. Fuel economy sells fleet vehicles.
Sorry....I work directly for an automotive OEM (and for one before that) for 20 years now....and automotive manufacturers ABSOLUTELY "leave horsepower on the table" all the time.

Every.
Single.
Engine.

And that applies to every. single. manufacturer. , as well.

Why? Two reasons.
1) Emissions requirements
and
2) Engine longevity / warranty criteria.

Ever wonder why the same engine (in the same car!) carries significantly different horsepower and torque specs when sold in different parts of the world? That's largely emission requirement driven.

But what goes on "behind the scenes" when an engine is in final test/tune calibration with the a factory engineers is HUGELY impacted by the tune's calculated effect on projected durability/longevity of the engine. Lengthy factory warranties sell cars as much (or more so!) as horsepower and torque numbers do....as well as projected cost analysis for the lifetime maintenance costs of a vehicle's drivetrain. So an engine that makes 15-20% more horsepower, but has increased wear/tear due to increased internal heat (leaner air/fuel ratios, advanced timing) and accelerated driveline wear/rear....this is not viewed as any kind of "win" for the OEM.

Increased horsepower.....at the expense of a higher occurrence of warranty repair costs and a reputation for less-than-number-one reliability/durability will quickly ruin any bragging rights of a few more ponies from the same engine. Durability is a number one goal for OEM and owners alike! All you have to do is pay attention to how many TV commercials claim to have "the longest lasting trucks on the road" --- it's just as many commercials as the "best in class horsepower/torque" commercials....but you have to understand, the SAME struggles with optimizing the same laws of engine physics/thermodynamics....and balancing those against the same physical laws of engine metallurgy/reliable operating windows of stress/heat --- these are going on at every single company.

More power? Sure, no problem!
But at what cost.

Long and short: OEM's play it very conservative with their engine tuning.....and so the aftermarket has a LOT of "margin potential" to unlock in most any engine, should the tuner (and owner) be OK with the reality of a higher probability of a shortened service life for said engine. (And/or the likelihood of failing smog/emission checks.)

The only rare exceptions might be a ultra-limited-edition track-special Corvette (or something like the Dodge Challenger Demon) which are tuned/specifically intended for race-only applications. But even those carry factory warranties of some sort, so the engine still isn't tuned to its full power potential.

Okay.....off the soap box.
__________________

__________________
Mike T
___________________
'95 Ford E250 RB30 PH
MountainBikeRoamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Sportsmobile SIP or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.