AC Breaker Box/Distribution Panel Suggestions

Drizzt · 09-08-2022, 05:58 AM

Greetings fellow van addicts!

Installing my solar system and struggling with the AC breakers. Wondering what people are using for breaker boxes/distribution panels for their AC side?

I need a 30A main for incoming shore power and 50A GFCI/ELCI for inverter main with at least four 15A branch circuits from it. I had originally intended to use BlueSea but they quoted me $1500 and a 5-6 MONTH lead time. Most of their off-the-shelf stuff doesn't quite work based on talking with their tech support. I've seen people use residential breaker boxes and breakers so I sorted through those options which would put me in the $300 range but having three boxes takes up so much room (although I think I have figured out how to make it work if I have to do so...).

I've seen photos of systems with what appears to be smaller Eaton boxes that almost look to be made of plastic, but I'll be damned if I can find them. I found WFCO this morning but their website is limited so planning on calling them later. But thought maybe the brain trust collective on SMBF might have some additional ideas.

Thanks, y'all.

David

**daveb** · 09-08-2022, 09:39 AM

Somewhat confused but is this panel for the home or for inside your vehicle? My 30A breaker is located at the source (at the house/home panel) not in the van. In most circumstances you would never feed a 30 amp breaker in the vehicle with a 30 amp breaker from the home panel. Also with most SMB's, the breakers are 110v and my shore power plug is rated for 30 amps @110v (3 wire). Most RV's that require a 50 amp (or larger) shore power breaker are 220v (4 wire). The main thing is to never exceed the shore power plugs amp rating AND the vans AC wire rating. Also I'm a little confused why you would need a 50 breaker for the inverter. What size inverter do you have?

**daveb** · 09-08-2022, 09:49 AM

Here is my van's shore power plug

dhally · 09-08-2022, 10:03 AM

Blue Sea, wfco, and Progrssive Dynamics. Most have ac and dc distribution in the same panel.

Drizzt · 09-08-2022, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveb

Somewhat confused but is this panel for the home or for inside your vehicle? My 30A breaker is located at the source (at the house/home panel) not in the van. In most circumstances you would never feed a 30 amp breaker in the vehicle with a 30 amp breaker from the home panel. Also with most SMB's, the breakers are 110v and my shore power plug is rated for 30 amps @110v (3 wire). Most RV's that require a 50 amp (or larger) shore power breaker are 220v (4 wire). The main thing is to never exceed the shore power plugs amp rating AND the vans AC wire rating. Also I'm a little confused why you would need a 50 breaker for the inverter. What size inverter do you have?

Howdy, Dave!

Inverter is a Victron MultiPlus 12/2000/80.

30A is between shore power outlet and inverter/charger. I've seen people not have this in their system and others with it. I know that technically if in a campground that their service should have a breaker on their side, but I've seen some crazy things out there. But I'm rarely (like once in five years) in a campground. However, Victron says to protect the AC-in with a fuse or magnetic circuit breaker, so was going to add one in just to be on safe side. I'm willing to be talked out of it...

50A on the AC-out is because the inverter can add up to 16A with their "PowerAssist" feature. Victron specifically requires this to be a GFCI breaker.

BCam · 09-08-2022, 11:20 AM

I'm not sure of the specifics of your specs, but this is what I purchased (not installed yet):

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

They probably make other sizes.

**daveb** · 09-08-2022, 02:33 PM

So, is your plan to install an outside shore power receptacle and bus rated for 50 amps to the inverter? To use a 50-amp breaker, the vans power in socket, extension cord, and wire to the inverter must be rated for 50 amps. You wouldn’t want to plug into a 30-amp pedestal if your load exceeds 30 amps. Most 110 volt shore power pedestals I've seen (other than 220 4 wire) are 3 wire 110 volt 30 amp rated and am guessing is a standard. I could be wrong though.
I guess if you plan to power something that pulls more than 50 amps and the total max output can be supplemented with power inverted from the battery system, technically you would rate the GFCI output breaker higher to cover the extra ampacity. It would depend on if you needed to actually supply a device or enough devices that together pull in excess of 50 amps. Do you think that will ever happen? It all depends on your electrical loads you’ll use. The term “or less” comes to play.

AC-in:
The AC input must be protected by a fuse or magnetic circuit breaker rated at 50A
or less, and cable cross-section must be sized accordingly. If the input AC supply
is rated at a lower value, the fuse or magnetic circuit breaker should be downsized
accordingly.

AC-out:
With its PowerAssist feature the Multi can add up to 2kVA (that is 2000 / 120 = 17A) to the output during periods of peak power requirement. Together with a maximum input current of 50A this means that the output can supply up to 50 + 17 = 67A.

An earth leakage circuit breaker and a fuse or circuit breaker rated to support the
expected load must be included in series with the output, and cable cross-section
must be sized accordingly. Victron Energy recommends to use the Blue Sea
systems GFCI circuit breakersPN. 309X or 310X

Drizzt · 09-08-2022, 04:10 PM

On the AC-in to the inverter I'm planning on 30A shore power socket -> 30A breaker -> Inverter/Charger. I don't see myself ever plugging in to 50A service as I rarely hit a campground and even if I did, I'm not in one of those monster RV's that requires 50A service to run all their fancy creature comforts.

On the AC-out from the inverter I was looking to use a 50A breaker based on what Victron told me (distributor rep [who wasn't the best] and the manual) because even with 30A AC-in, the Power Assist thing could add to it. However, to your point I should never see a 50A draw so even with the assist should never see 50A; I hadn't considered that. Plus, a 30A GFCI can be had in single pole flavor, so that would simplify things.

But that still leaves me with the original problem of these ginormous residential breaker boxes since BlueSea seems to be out of stock on everything GFCI/ELCI related until next year. The WFCO and Progressive Dynamics options are still way bigger than I need; they are 10 slot and I need 5-6 (assuming 1-2 is a main).

Drizzt · 09-08-2022, 04:19 PM

Side note: Interesting that what you found for a manual is different than the one that came with the thing and what came up with the QR code. No mention of expected loads on the AC-out or a reference to anything other than the Blue Sea 50A ELCI. Wonder if that is where the rep was getting his opinion...

AC-out:

With its PowerAssist feature the MultiPlus can add up to 2kVA (that is 2000 / 120 = 16A) to the output during periods of peak power requirement. Together with a maximum input current of 50A this means that the output can supply up to 50 + 16 = 66A.

Ground-fault circuit-interrupters shall be installed in the recreational vehicle wiring system to protect all branch circuits. Victron Energy recommends to use the Blue Sea GFCI circuit breaker PN3093.

**daveb** · 09-08-2022, 06:33 PM

Hopefully Greg will chime in with his views.

IMO you wouldn't want to use a 50 amp breaker in the van. It doesn't say you have to unless you plan to pull those loads. Now if the inverter supplements load to a certain percent, you would factor that in on the output breaker...maybe a 40A GFCI. But you could also use a 30A breaker as well if your loads are never going to reach over 30 amps. It doesn't hurt to use slightly larger bus wire, but I'd stick with the max service entrance rating you're planning to use to determine the breaker size.

As far as visual aesthetics, you'll have to pay a bit for it and might take some research to find what fits. As often as breakers trip, you might find a spot out of view to jam a small box in, maybe a cabinet or close to the inverter???

BCam's example is professional looking compared to what I used for my cargo trailer electrical setup.

I've yet to cover my install with insulation in the cargo trailer but everything functions, it's been too hot to work, and it's a friggin cargo trailer.