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Old 09-24-2014, 02:02 PM   #41
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Re: Best Solar Charge Controller? And Series vs Parallel Wi

AM refers to Air Mass. The standard test condition STC requires a Air Mass of 1.5. STC should be the same across all panel vendors. These are the values they test the panels at to get specification numbers. They don't list any temperature coefficients, but current drop caused by temp is small, voltage drop is the big hitter with temperature.

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Old 09-24-2014, 02:46 PM   #42
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Re: Best Solar Charge Controller? And Series vs Parallel Wi

Quote:
Originally Posted by E350
So instead of the $1,000+ which I paid for my current panels I could get these for $400!
yup, and in another couple years they'll be half price again.
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Old 09-24-2014, 04:48 PM   #43
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Re: Best Solar Charge Controller? And Series vs Parallel Wi

[quote="E350"]Viva:

O contraire:

http://www.grapesolar.com/specs-100w-mo ... fab36.html

Read the manufacture's spec sheet. These panels are 100w 18.5 Vmp 36-cell monocrystaline panels and negative grounded (or not grounded at all). And then call Grape Solar and ask where to buy them or search for (i.e., DuckDuckGo) GS-s-100-fab36

Well I was looking at these:

http://www.amsolar.com/home/amr/page_13 ... panel.html

They are 32-cell panels but I thought they were "good" ones. I believe they are Grape (which is right near AMSolar). Now I'm completely confused. If the specs are just as good, why is 36 cell better?
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Old 09-24-2014, 04:51 PM   #44
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Re: Best Solar Charge Controller? And Series vs Parallel Wi

Quote:
Originally Posted by E350
Viva:

O contraire:

http://www.grapesolar.com/specs-100w-mo ... fab36.html

Read the manufacture's spec sheet. These panels are 100w 18.5 Vmp 36-cell monocrystaline panels and negative grounded (or not grounded at all). And then call Grape Solar and ask where to buy them or search for (i.e., DuckDuckGo) GS-s-100-fab36
Well I was looking at these:

http://www.amsolar.com/home/amr/page_13 ... panel.html

They are 32-cell panels but I thought they were "good" ones. I believe they are Grape (which is right near AMSolar). Now I'm completely confused. If the specs are just as good, why is 36 cell so much better than 32 cell? The 32 cell version actually lists a slightly higher efficiency percentage (not that I think that's going to be a big thing in the real world, but it seems it would not indicate a lesser panel?). The 32 cell is very slightly narrower, which is good for my rig, but it's less than an inch.

Oh, the other thing is that I was also going to use a combination of the 135 watt panel and 100 watt panel that AM Solar has (it's a roof/size thing) and those two are about the same Vmp. It was just the 160 that was the "oddball" voltage.

I guess I could go with a combination of the 160 and some of the 100's that you linked to (all 18.x Vmp) but that's not quite as slick a setup for my particular roof. It blocks off the whole roof instead of just part of it (saving the other part for another roof vent, an AC, or a storage pod).
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Old 09-24-2014, 04:58 PM   #45
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Re: Best Solar Charge Controller? And Series vs Parallel Wi

FWIW, Costco.com has Grape solar panels, and even has a 'custom order' page where it looks like they'll put together a package for you.

http://www.costco.com/Grape-Solar-Custo ... 55487.html


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Old 09-24-2014, 05:10 PM   #46
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Re: Best Solar Charge Controller? And Series vs Parallel Wi

I'm probably going to go with AM Solar provided they have what I want. Reason is that I stopped in there and they had a nice board set up with a bunch of controllers one could play with (much nicer than just looking online) and they were generous with their time (although I will be installing myself). That's not to say I will spend thousands extra or buy the "wrong" items for my setup if that's all they have though. But just if they have what I want and it is reasonable I will buy from them. They are in Oregon so no sales tax there if you are there in person, and they will do free shipping if you are buying a whole system or at least a "system's worth" of parts.

PS: But I don't mean this to discourage anyone from mentioning other sources - not at all! And if I can't get what I want/need from AM Solar I will certainly buy elsewhere.
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Old 09-24-2014, 06:44 PM   #47
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Re: Best Solar Charge Controller? And Series vs Parallel Wi

Viva: Check this out with AM solar. And maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure that you don't get enough volts from a 32 cell panel to effectively run a MPPT controller. In fact 32 cell panels are specifically made to be used to charge a 12 volt battery without the use of a controller. So forget about bulk, float and absorbtion charge modes which a charge controller will provide. And forget about charging a large amp hour deep cycle battery or battery bank. Check out below:

from:

http://www.alternative-energy-tutorials ... -need.html



"So How Many Cells Do We Need?

Most photovoltaic (PV) panel manufacturers make 12 Volt solar panels for battery charging with 32, 36, or 48 cells in the series string. They are all rated at about the same current, being composed of the same basic cell. The difference between these panels is one of voltage. The question for us to answer here is how their output voltages relate to the voltages we require for our 12V charging system.

32 Cells in Series

This size of photovoltaic panel has the lowest voltage rating of only 14.7 Volts (0.46 Volts times 32 cells). This is because it has the fewest number of PV cells in its series string. This panel design closely matches the charging curve of a standard 12 Volt lead acid battery. As the battery charges-up, its terminal voltage rises. When this battery is almost full its voltage is about the same as the PV cell's at around 14.7 volts. The 32 cell module simply hasn't enough voltage to continue charging the battery when its full so cannot overcharge the average, small, lead acid battery.

The applications suitable for these small 32 cell solar panels are in RV's, boats, garden lighting and summer cabins. These applications are characterized by their intermittent use and relatively small battery charging capacity. In these these types of low power applications, a 32 cell panel can be used with or without a charge current regulator as the batteries will not become overcharged if left connect to the panel during long periods of non-use.

36 Cells in Series

This size of photovoltaic panel has an output voltage of about 16.7 Volts (0.46 times 36 cells). This is enough output voltage to be able to continue to charge a lead acid battery even though it may be already fully recharged. The 36 cell panel is suitable for a home based 12 Volt alternative energy system with high battery capacities as it has the higher output voltage necessary to recharge deep cycle lead acid batteries.

However, a 36 cell solar panel will require some form of charge regulation to prevent overcharging the battery during periods of high solar intensities or when battery usage is at its lowest.

A 36 cell solar panel tends to be more cost effective in a typical home power application because it can produce a good amount of current or high voltages at elevated temperatures. The higher voltage produced by the 36 series wired cells will more effectively recharges a large deep cycle lead acid batteries.

High ambient temperatures will cause the voltage of any PV panel to reduce slightly, but the 36 cell panel has more than enough voltage surplus to still be an effective battery charger even at high ambient temperatures.

48 Cells in Series

A 48 cell panel is the big daddy of the PV industry. 48 individual photovoltaic cells connected in series produces an output voltage of about 22 volts. These large PV panels have sufficient output current capacity to charge a 12 Volt system, regardless of the battery's voltage or high temperature. However, these large panels do require some form of charge regulation in just about every application. They have the sufficient voltage necessary to raise a solar system's voltage, while charging full batteries, to well over 16 volts. This over voltage is high enough to ruin any electronic equipment rated at 12 VDC so some form of protection is needed.

Generally, a 48 cell solar module has very specific applications where high power and currents are required such as in pumping water or were long cable runs will have appreciable voltage losses even if large diameter cables are used. Another disadvantage of this PV panel is its size and additional cost compared to 32 and 36 PV cell panels. On the plus side, a 48 cell panel will perform better in very hot areas and areas with very low levels of sunlight throughout the year.

To learn more about "Photovoltaic Cells", solar panels and solar power, or to learn how to build your own DIY solar panel from individual solar cells to make Solar Power in your home a reality so you can save money on your utility bills, and to help you on your way consider Clicking Heresolar array and getting one of the solar books from Amazon about home made solar panel construction ensuring so that you have all the necessary information to get your solar power installation working efficiently and effectively the first time."
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Old 09-24-2014, 07:20 PM   #48
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Re: Best Solar Charge Controller? And Series vs Parallel Wi

Quote:
Originally Posted by E350
32 Cells: This size of photovoltaic panel has the lowest voltage rating of only 14.7 Volts (0.46 Volts times 32 cells). This is because it has the fewest number of PV cells in its series string.
I wonder if this is outdated or incorrect information. Reason I question it is that the 32 cell panels I'm looking at are rated at 17.7 Vmpp. I did send a note to AM Solar to ask about it, but they did recommend an MPPT controller to go along with them. They carry quite a few different Grape panels in addition to the ones I was thinking I would get (they are in the same town), so would have no particular reason I know of not to carry the 36 cell one if they liked it better. This is the 32 cell one I was looking at:

http://grapesolar.com/100w-off-grid-gs-s-100-ts.html

I'm not refuting what you say (for sure) because I am not an expert; but only saying that this is new info for me and I can see that some of what is in the article you quoted doesn't hold for the panels I am looking at (the Vmpp statement at least). I can also change my mind on panels though!
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Old 09-24-2014, 08:29 PM   #49
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Re: Best Solar Charge Controller? And Series vs Parallel Wi

Ditto here big times 3 !!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viva
I'm not refuting what you say (for sure) because I am not an expert; but only saying that this is new info for me ... I wonder if this is outdated or incorrect information. Reason I question it is that the 32 cell panels I'm looking at are rated at 17.7 Vmpp.
The article I quoted and linked was posted by "Administrator on Monday, 24 December 2012 in Solar Power Articles"

Viva, I have only 24 hours of reading on this topic.

I know nothing but what I have gleaned from what others have written (and I may misunderstand half of that!). However, I have noticed that the solar sales people do not always seem to know their stuff. But consistently, they seem to recommend the highest priced product in their line.*

So I would turn the telescope around if I were you. Contact the MPPT controller manufacturer of your choice and ask them what number of cells panels they recommend for the controller you are interested in. Check and cross-check.

*In contrast, both Scalff77 who I trust from his writings on this forum and vtMaps who seems to be a regular and a respected poster on the Midniteforum.com both recommended a PWM controller for my low Vmp old school vintage 2005 panels. See:

http://midniteforum.com/index.php?topic=2102.0

And guess what! Although vtMaps did not mention it, I see from their website that Midnite Solar is coming out with a state of the art PWM controller!!! Called the "Brat." So I may wait for the Brat for use with my existing system. See:

http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/spec_s ... ntBack.pdf

So, this is the part that directly pertains to you Viva. Scalff77 and vtMaps both recommended a PWM controller for me because my panels are only rated at 17.6Vmp.

The 32-cell panels you are considering are rated at 17.7Vmp. So the ones you are considering are only 0.01Vmp more than my 2005 panels. So wouldn't their advice also pertain to you with those 32-cell panels?

In contrast, the panels which both KTMRider and RallyPanAm have installed and are happy with while using an MPPT controller, are the 36-cell version rated at 18.5Vmp:

http://grapesolar.com/files/9919/GS-S-100-Fab36.pdf

Good Luck and please post what you find and what you decide on. No doubt others with more knowledge than I will comment, so we will both learn.
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Old 09-25-2014, 05:54 AM   #50
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Re: Best Solar Charge Controller? And Series vs Parallel Wi

Update on my Midnite Solar forum thread on PWM vs MPPT (Midnite the "Kid" model) with panels like mine:

vtMaps: "I did not mean to imply (or for you to infer) that a Midnite controller in legacy mode is no better than a PWM controller. The MPPT controller in legacy mode still sweeps, and still down converts PV volts to battery volts while increasing current. MPPT controllers, in general, have higher tare losses than well engineered PWM controllers... I expect that Midnite's forthcoming 'Brat' PWM controller will be lower tare loss than the kid or classic. In most systems the MPPT controller is able to harvest more than enough energy per day to make up for the losses."

from:

http://midniteforum.com/index.php?topic=2102.0

As I stated above, I will likely take Scalff77's (and vtMaps) advice and go with a PWM controller for my existing panels, and I am very interested in Midnite's "Brat" forthcoming PWM controller referred to above.

My research indicates that "tare losses" is nighttime depletion of the battery caused by the charge controller iteself. Apparently as a general rule the tare loss by an MPPT controller is more than the tare loss of a PWM controller. But in larger systems (e.g., grid tie systems) tare losses are insignificant. However, in a small system such as mine, tare losses could be significant such that it is best to actually turn an MPPT controller off at night:

"from what i understand they did make a few small inroads into the tare losses. not sure of the official draw these days, but i usually see about 1a on 12v output as the crossover point for the cc to stop resting making the tare loss on mine about 12w which used to be 20w in the beginning if i remember right. i shut my classic off at night rather than use the power up needlessly and i would've done this with any mppt cc. tare losses on pwm ccs are quite low and i never needed to shut any of those off in the past, but i did anyway"

from:

http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthr ... ller/page2

So, probably important for us little guys to compare the tare loss specs between controllers before purchasing...
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