House Battery - Should they last more than a year?

[daveb]

Originally Posted by sdwindansea

Was there any explanation as to why this is a good idea? I was under the impression that both Solar and plugged in are both capable of achieving a full charge on the batteries while the alternator only really achieves around a 90% charge. I haven't plugged in since we got solar. Thanks.

Same here. The only time I plug in is if something (such as the refrigerator) is on and even then I don't activate the charger. It would be different is the refrigerator worked off DC only. I plug in only to supply AC to it while the solar is off during night hours. As long as there is no DC draw the batteries stay fully charged and the solar keeps them full from day to day while the van sits. It has worked fine for me.

[flyfisher]

My Lifeline 4D AGM lasted 6 years. I have the luxury of always having The Van plugged in when I'm not driving it. When I first bought The Van in 2005 (new), the Lifeline folks recommended always leaving it plugged in where possible.

Tom

[daveb]

Originally Posted by flyfisher

My Lifeline 4D AGM lasted 6 years. I have the luxury of always having The Van plugged in when I'm not driving it. When I first bought The Van in 2005 (new), the Lifeline folks recommended always leaving it plugged in where possible.

Tom

At one time I did the same and turned on the charger every night. That was until I had a starting battery failure. I was lucky I found the bad battery the next day. Sure glad I went out in the morning to get the paper or I might have lost the van to a fire. I noticed the typical rotten egg smell while walking by the van. The bad battery box was so hot I couldn't touch it.
But there were signs of trouble before that I didn't catch. If you see your charger pulling unusually high amperage, it's time to look for a problem. A couple of day prior I had noticed the overnight charge had never dropped to the 1-2 amp zone which indicates a chraged battery system. Instead it read around 10 amps. By the next day it was at 40 amps and boiling the bad battery. You just have to keep an eye on them. I've had 3 sealed wet cell batteries fail and have now switched to AGM starting batteries. But I don't know if they will do the same by pulling high amps and heat up when they fail. BTW it didn't seem to harm the house batteries but it was winter and very cold. If it was summer, more than likely the battery temp probe would have shut down the charger.

[ecmccarthy]

Reading daveb's story, I'd like to chime in with a similar story and get your opinion. I just bought a 2004 6.0 SMB with solar set up and start batteries that are only one year old. I've had trouble starting in the mornings after running the fridge all night (on 2). Once started and driven, it starts no problem. I was also having a problem with the stereo system which shut down on me. Ron (?) at SMB West/Integrated Audio said it was likely due to a short. I just found a melted wire today that had gotten caught behind the firewall below the stereo housing. I fixed that and the radio now works. The third problem now is that the rearmost start battery and carraige under the van is hot to the touch, more so when plugged into shore (which seems odd). Could the stereo short (over the last two weeks) have damaged the battery enough to cause this? Could there be something wrong with the separator allowing draw from the start batteries by the fridge? I just got a SMB manual and am slowly learning about all this. Any insight would be much appreciated. I don't want to drive it and risk a fire or worse!

[daveb]

Yeah, more than likely you have a bad starting battery. Are you sure the refrigerator is killing the batteries? I'm guessing you also have a house battery system which is what the fridge runs off of. If the fridge is pulling the starting batteries down you need to make sure the separator is working correctly. The separator is supposed to protect the starting batteries from being discharged by something running in the "living area". In some builds, SMB had the battery separator rigged to assist start from the house system so you might never know one of the starting batteries is on it's way out. If you have a surepower seperator, you can pull the ground wire to it which will keep the seperator from closing during the ignition start. The engine should drag more during the start. There could be other issues but that is where I would start.

But no matter what, if you have a hot battery pull it out and have a load test done to it. When one battery in a bank (Combined group) of batteries fail, it's best to replace the other(s) it is in Parallel with. This doesn't apply to the other battery or bank that is isolated by a separator such as the house battery.

There are a number of reasons why the battery failed but my guess is the radio didn't do it or it would have probably killed both starting batteries. Don't charge or drive it very far and get it out before it does any more problems. If the dash battery gauge shows low voltage or it throws a code don't drive at all and replace the batteries at home.
Good luck

Dave

[ecmccarthy]

Thanks for the reply. Yes, there is a house AGM battery and a surepower separator. The separator is located under the van just fore of the start batteries on the passenger side. I've seen some posts on how to check it that I'll try. I cannot, however seem to find the separator fuse. It isn't anywhere near the separator, nor can I find it under the dash, though it may be one I can see I just don't know I'm looking at it.

Regarding the separator, I'm trying to understand this with my non-engineere brain with the way it's explained in the manual. As I understand it, when either the house & start batteries are being charged, the separator opens and both battery systems are charged. This is happens both with alternator, shore 110V, and solar charging, right? (this would help explain the battery being hotter when the van was plugged in). If the drain on the system is below 12.8 V, the separator will disconnect the start batteries as to not have them excessively drained. I'm also assuming the readout on the Blue Sky controller refers to the entire system, not just the house battery?

Your suggestion of disconnecting the ground wire on the separator would be the equivalent of "jump starting" the van using the house battery, right?

Also, is there a particular method of pulling the wires off the batteries to have them tested. I've searched for posts but couldn't find. Maybe you've seen one?

Thanks again,

Chad

[daveb]

Originally Posted by ecmccarthy

Your suggestion of disconnecting the ground wire on the separator would be the equivalent of "jump starting" the van using the house battery, right?



Thanks again,

Chad

Not really. The separator (the one SMB used at one time) was a bi-directional unit. If either bank (battery supply) dropped below 12.8v, the thing opens up and separates the systems. But if it sees a voltage that it determines as a charge voltage (around 13.2) it will combined (or close) to connect both battery systems. This happens with the shore charger, solar, and alternator. So as an example, the alternator puts out around 13+ volts. The separator see that voltage on one side of the separator and "closes" the relay. It lets the charge apply to the starting batteries as normal but also supplies a charge to the house system. That fine and the way it works but if there is a large draw from something like a shorted battery, the voltage could continue to drop until it reaches that threshold of 12.8 and then open to separate again. This is what happens when you run the microwave. The alternator can't keep up with the heavy draw and the separator opens. It protects the starting batteries from a load (in this case the microwave) that overwhelms the input charge. A bad battery does the same but just the opposite. Depending on the starting battery's failing state, it can hog several amps. Now the separator is protecting the house system.
Depending on what your charger can put out (in amps) the charger simply supplies what the draw wants. IT FEEDS THE BEAST. The charger cannot tell what system wants a charge. It's the low voltage the separator sees that causes it to open. As long as the charger keeps the voltage up above 12.8 the separator will not open. Some chargers have a programmed cutoff point, some don't. Even a continuous supply of amperage of 10A will cause a faulted battery to heat up over time. Sure it's not as bad as 40 amps and is why you can drive not causing a huge problem. The battery can spew acid and the battery can explode but it's not common. A shore power charger that can supply 50 amps is another issue.

Pulling the ground wire to the separator simply forces the separator to open and disconnect the two banks. It is possible that the separator contacts can fuse together which keeps the battery systems to be constantly connected. It has happened to me but usually a faulty separator "opens" and refuses to close. In that case no charge goes to the house system from the alternator. That is not your situation IMO.

The jump start feature was incorported on several builds and was replaced with a push button switch. The surepower separator was once rigged to "close" when the ignition key was activated. It stayed connected during the vehicle start the returned to normal operation. I don't know how you van is configured.
It comes down to this:

Drop the batteries out and disconnect each from the system. You can isolate the ground while testing but it's better to pull the suspected battery and test it on its own.

If your starting battery is hot while on shore power charge, STOP the charge.

If your starting battery is hot after a drive, replace the battery; preferably both.

I’ve been drinkin tonight…hope I’ve posted the correct info
Go Steelers

[edit] most systems are like this:
note that the solar and inverter/charger are connected the same

[ecmccarthy]

Thanks for the in-depth. I think I need to go back to batteries 101 as my head is spinning. At risk of sounding like a nimwit, I have two simple questions. I found this old post of yours in which you write:
...
Its always been only one battery that failed.
I have solar. (I was told the solar does not charge my chassis batteries and it seems true)
I frequently shore charge overnight before each trip.
I always plug in at home but leave the charger off.
I replaced my alternator with a high amp and still had a problem.

When you say you plug in but leave teh charger off, what exactly do you mean by charger off? Do you mean you turn the inverter/charger off? Is that the same as switching your inverter panel to "charge" instead of "auto? (seems to be a contradiction in terms). Also, by your explanation below, the solar should charge the start batteries if they are lower voltage than the house battery, right? I'm just trying to get this all straight.

Also, I've read about people being able to see the volt reading separtately on the start and house batteries. The only readout I see is on the solar control panel and I assumed that gave an overall value for the entire system. Is that just the house battery? If so how do I know what the start batteries are at without getting under the van?

FYI, after disconnecting from shore two days ago, the suspected bad battery has cooled down, but there is still a noticeable temp difference between the two (one cold and one lukewarm). The van does start readily, but I'm afraid to do so much before getting the battery tested. The plan is to take both start batteries out, take them to Ford and have them both load tested independently. They are still under warranty and only a year old to the day (installed anyhow). I'll let you know how it turns out.

Oh yeah, any idea where the fuse might be for the separator that's located under the van?

Thanks again. Don't have a TV in the house. Would have to go sit in the van to watch the game but alas the battery issues.....

[daveb]

Its always been only one battery that failed.

>>In my case yes but it doesn’t mean more than one won't fail. In fact the bad battery can damage the good one and cause it to fail at a later date.

I have solar. (I was told the solar does not charge my chassis batteries and it seems true)

>>At that time I was having issues with the surepower separator. If the separator is open, the solar does not charge the starting system.

I frequently shore charge overnight before each trip

>>I do this to make sure the batteries get a good solid charge before heading out on a trip. The alternator provides about 90% of full charge

I always plug in at home but leave the charger off.

>>There is no reason to charge if no load has been applied to the batteries. I keep the charge button off unless I suspect the batteries state of charge is not @ 100%.

I replaced my alternator with a high amp and still had a problem.

>>That’s because I had a failing starting battery. All I did by replacing the alternator with a bigger one was to supply more amps towards burning up the battery faster. The problem still remained and I was scratching my head. It was an expensive fix that did nothing to solve the problem. There still is an advantage of having a larger alternator though.

When you say you plug in but leave teh charger off, what exactly do you mean by charger off? Do you mean you turn the inverter/charger off?

>>Yes for the reasons stated above.


Is that the same as switching your inverter panel to "charge" instead of "auto? (seems to be a contradiction in terms).

>>My inverter is full auto unless I program it not to be. I can turn on the inverter to supply AC power but to charge the batteries I must be plugged into shore power and have to activate the charge button.

Also, by your explanation below, the solar should charge the start batteries if they are lower voltage than the house battery, right?

>>As long as the separator sees any charge coming in (on either side) it will close to combine the batteries. All the batteries will start to charge, but if either side has a draw that exceeds the charge amperage, the voltage will drop below 12.8 volts and the separator will open. The surepower separator has a lag time that it operates so it won’t open and close rapidly or “chatter”. So If you have your microwave set to a medium high power and have the engine running, the separator will close because the separator see an incoming charge. But because the microwave pulls more amps than the alternator can put out, the batteries will eventually drop below 12.8 causing the separator to open. As it opens the voltage will start to rise (because the alternator is still supplying a charge) and once it reaches a voltage in the range of 13.2, the separator closes and the whole cycle starts over.
Depending on a bad batteries state, it reacts similar to a microwave running.

Also, I've read about people being able to see the volt reading separtately on the start and house batteries. The only readout I see is on the solar control panel and I assumed that gave an overall value for the entire system. Is that just the house battery? If so how do I know what the start batteries are at without getting under the van?

>>You can’t really test each battery unless they are disconnected from each other. I have three volt meters to look at, the inverter, the solar controller, and a separate xantrex meter. At night if you see the voltage drop to below 12v on the controller gauge when the separator opens, it indicates a low house battery. You can check voltage of the starting batteries by taking voltage at one of the dash 12v ports but the separator must be open. Even then you’ll only see the voltage of two combined batteries. A failing battery can slowly pull its counterpart down over time. A badly shorted battery can pull the other down faster…it all depends on the bad battery’s state.

FYI, after disconnecting from shore two days ago, the suspected bad battery has cooled down, but there is still a noticeable temp difference between the two (one cold and one lukewarm). The van does start readily, but I'm afraid to do so much before getting the battery tested. The plan is to take both start batteries out, take them to Ford and have them both load tested independently. They are still under warranty and only a year old to the day (installed anyhow).

>>Three times Ford claimed they tested my batteries and said all was OK. They lied and told me each was tested on its own. Don’t trust Ford. At best they will probably only want to replace the bad battery. OK it’s free but the other might go at any time. I suggest you find the ground wire to the separator and pull it at the dealership.

Oh yeah, any idea where the fuse might be for the separator that's located under the van?

>>It should be on the SMB fuse block near the separator. Mine is under the bench seat on my 50 plan. Hard to say w/o seeing your van.

[ecmccarthy]

Not wanting to make the 1.5 hour drive to Fresno to the dealership for fear of causing serious problems with a boiling battery, I've opted to DC my batteries and take them in myself.

Problem: I got the suspected bad battery off, but the other one has two stripped bolts on the carraige housing so I can't get the carraige off of the van for a few days (I'll probably have to cut them off). Will having the house battery sit uncharged for several days or a week hurt it? It shouldn't drain too low if nothings drawing on it right? Just want to make sure I've got time to pull this off without doing more damage.

Could I connect the remaining start battery back to the car to at least let it and the house charge until I can get to it?

The joys of living in the hills....