E-series Battery boxes and Lithium conversion-- worth a new thread

scuba · 10-13-2023, 05:54 AM

Hey guys,
I found some of this information scattered around, but thought it'd be worth a new thread.

As stated by helpful folks in the threads below, the Ford battery boxes are made for group 65, which are unusually short (less tall, vertically), at least for Lithium batteries. Of all of the brands I was able to find that met the length and width (Litime, Battleborn, Mightymax, WEIZE, XS Power), Renogy with literally the only one that was short enough, and still be a full-size automotive-type battery.

I just finished installing two Renogy 100AH batteries, and even these, at 7.5inches tall, just barely allow for the box to close and get the benefit of most of the protection from the lids. (Remember to have the terminals on the inboard side, which is taller).

It's worth repeating what others have said: with the exception of one guy I was able to chat with at Renogy, Renogy's customer service is lacking in any knowledge about their products (after 45 min on the phone, and multiple side conversations with her colleagues, one rep assured me that the threads for the terminals are "M8x2.0" (they are not, they are M8x1.0, as confirmed by the thread testing board at Home depot). In case you're trying to put traditional terminal posts on them like I was, all of the posts I found were M8x1.25 and therefore incompatible.

Even more worth saying, though, is the team at Redarc is unbelievably helpful. I gladly paid 2x the price of other DC-DC chargers for 1) their waterproof unit, and 2) at least 4-5 super helpful conversations about my setup.

Do yourself a huge favor, and use Redarc for your DC-DC charger and anything else you can.

Finally, using the Renogy's, with the RJ45 screen, Redarc DC-DC charger, and (old) Progressive Dynamics Intellipower Shore Power converter, I was able to get ~3-5 days out of my batteries on our trip this week, drawing 4-6 amps for DC fridge and phone charges). The ability to monitor the (I assume accurate) remaining amp hours and charging was truly game-changing.

The one hiccup was that, with alternator no longer directly connected to the pop-top motors, we had to assist the motors and push up the pop top ourselves. This is surprising when the Pop-top motors (per Bud at CCV, and confirmed with battery monitor) draw 30amps, and the DC-DC charger is providing 50 Amps. If you have a choice like I did at CCV, let them connect the pop-top to the alternator vs the house battery panel. (I was nervous about draining the starter battery, and regret asking them to utilize my house panel).

https://www.redarcelectronics.com/au...attery-charger

Here are the threads I found helpful about battery boxes.

https://www.sportsmobileforum.com/fo...tml#post261347

https://www.sportsmobileforum.com/fo...box-27274.html

https://www.sportsmobileforum.com/fo...box-25823.html

kbeefy · 10-13-2023, 09:55 AM

So, your 2 100aH batteries + DC-DC charger with engine running was unable to lift the top? I assume those batteries have a internal BMS that puts out 100A (each)?
Something seems wrong about that.
Did you happen to look at your shunt power display to see what kind of amps it was passing?

What are you using to monitor the battery charge status? I have the lower end Renogy and find it's not very good at measuring capacity, but works fine as a volt and amp meter.

Scalf77 · 10-13-2023, 11:29 AM

I would agree, first the two batteries should be able to provide 30 amps to lift top. Second if running the DC to DC should be putting out 50 ( unless in absorption or float), even then it should jump back into bulk rather quickly. So if it is putting out 50 amps, that means the top would get 30 and the battery 20. If you had the 30 amp draw on the alternator side of the DC to DC , there is a good chance that your would starve out the DC to DC especially at idle. Very possible your starving out the it out now.

If I am going to work with a new vendor, I generally call their support team with a variety of questions for their support team. These generally range from pretty easy to some more complex issues. The results of these calls generally determine if I am going to choose to do business with them. Some fail pretty miserably, while some others do surprisingly well. It also generally doesn't have a direct relationship with cost. A low cost vendor I use has one of the best support guys, I have every delt with, haven't stumped him yet. Then there is Victron, the support is actually pretty good, but they will ask you to go back through the vendor you purchased it from. That makes sense for a newly purchased product, not so much when updating firmware on a year old install. Speaking of firmware, Victron updates firmware often. They generally are fixing bugs or adding features. There is at least one vendor I used that I stopped using because their firmware updates appeared to be buggier than the code it was replacing, causing me extra work.

scuba · 10-14-2023, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbeefy

So, your 2 100aH batteries + DC-DC charger with engine running was unable to lift the top? I assume those batteries have a internal BMS that puts out 100A (each)?
Something seems wrong about that.
Did you happen to look at your shunt power display to see what kind of amps it was passing?

What are you using to monitor the battery charge status? I have the lower end Renogy and find it's not very good at measuring capacity, but works fine as a volt and amp meter.

Thanks for the thoughts guys. I was monitoring the pop-top draw with what they call the Renogy "screen" (3in by 2in box connected via cat 5 to the battery). The screen showed a draw of 30amps (it shows either a positive or negative Amp flow). Meanwhile, junior was revving the engine to (in theory) provide positive 50amps via the DC-DC charger.

Based on yall's responses, at least 2 things are possible:
1) the poptop motors were drawing >30amps, so that the monitor's reported minus 30amp draw was 'net' of the input from the DC-DC charger. This would be consistent with my suspicion that CCV uses winch components, and winches can draw hundreds of amps (especially at the beginning of the lift of my top+roof rack). This would also be consistent with pre-modification experience where the old dual 75AH lead acid house batteries failed to lift the poptop alone (no engine running), and barely budged it when the shore power converter (+45amp) was connected. However, Bud was adamant that the motors draw at max 30.
*or*
2) the DC-DC charger wasn't providing anything at the time, despite the alternator providing 14.4 volts, possibly due to the algorithm (under certain conditions, eg when the house batteries show higher voltage than the starter battery or something, it changes the charging profile).

Either of those seem likely? It's the only black mark on an install I'm otherwise proud of. I could test more today.

scuba · 10-14-2023, 07:51 AM

@Scalf77 Greg, yeah I try to do something similar prior to buying. Sometimes (you're right) the highest cost isn't necessarily the best service. When it is, I'm grateful I can re-enforce their decision to hire good people and let them answer the phone by paying more (I didn't always think that way, ie when I couldn't afford it. Not sure I can afford it now, but hey, we do what we can each day...)

1der · 10-14-2023, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scuba

...... CCV uses winch components, and winches can draw hundreds of amps (especially at the beginning of the lift of my top+roof rack).

The only "winch components" CCV uses is a wireless remote control to raise and lower the top. This is in addition to the wired rocker switch for up and down.

The motors for raising and lowering the top are visible at the ends of the actuators. These actuator motors are rated at 5A each so you are looking at 10A draw combined. The actuator wiring runs through two relays wired to allow raising and lowering the top with the rocker switch or remote control.

Check all your connections from the battery to the fuse block to the relays. There are a set of wires that run up the passenger side rear corner in a sleeve, check any connectors on that sleeve. There are connectors at the motors, check those.

1der · 10-14-2023, 08:50 AM

re top-
Do you have the medium or high top? I am guessing medium.
What do you have mounted to the top and the approximate weight?
When was the top installed?
What gauge wire and length is running between your batteries and the house panel?
Any junction blocks / fuses in between?

1der · 10-14-2023, 01:08 PM

Scuba - I just checked the draw on our raising our CCV Medium Top rig and it shows 28A right off the full down position with no assistance and engine off. Roof has a Maxx Fan, 2 Unistrut full length rails, 2 Renogy 100A rigid panels, 2 Renogy 100A Flecible panels, 4 Yakima cross bars, and a 6ft Yakima Premium basket - adds up to about 150lbs.

It is slow off the resting position and definitely likes the assistance for the first 6 to 20 inches. Batteries are 2 x 100A Battleborn connected via 4 gauge wire to the fuse block.

Just providing for reference.

scuba · 10-16-2023, 05:12 AM

Thanks Ray. Sounds pretty similar to my 30A draw. I've got a medium top, rhino-lined from CCV, installed June 2021, with full-length aluminum roof rack/deck and deployable raised railing along 2 sides. I'd guess the rack adds ~150 lbs. (The deck is made of strips of those lightweight perf'd aluminum panels, which I regret-- wished I'd gone with a single perf'd sheet)

The gauge going from batteries to my house panel looks to be around 8, possibly 6. From the batteries to the panel there is a relay (so I can disconnect the entire panel), and then the house fuse block. I'm not sure what to check at those junctions-- I mean, it seems like it's either connected or not.

Now that I know we can help push it up manually if needed, it's less of a crisis, but I'll continue to test next time the van is out of the garage (it fits like a glove going into the garage, so it's a little of a production to get it out).

1der · 10-16-2023, 08:02 AM

Thxs.

re: Connections - they can be a point of voltage drop / resistance leading to less current getting to the motors to do the work. Corrosion, poor crimps, spade connections that have less contact area, etc. As the current reaches that poor connection heat is created using up part of the energy needed to lift the top. Think of current as water flowing and the poor crimp as restriction in that flow.

re Relay between battery and panel and fuse block - Can you post a picture or a drawing of what that looks like? Is that relay something that was added w the Lithium battery installation? Also, how are the ground connections being made?