Fresh and gray water tank questions.

[dbhosttexas]

Originally Posted by posplayr

These are not guidelines they are the Federal Laws in camping areas in CA and AZ.

I can assure you they do enforce the laws on federal lands as well as in California. If you read the thread posted you will see they the Gov has recruited private citizen agents to alert the rangers to anything untoward.


Some 30 years ago I was driving ho,e on the 101 in Ventura County (near Camarillo). I was driving this 1984 VW pop top Westfalia a little fast and a CHP stopped me. He gave me a warning but then saw the title was salvage (I had just bought it ).

He directs me off the freeway and we wait for backup in a carpool parking lot. After the other CHP arrives, the first cop dons his overalls and climbs under the VW bus to check the engine/trans serial numbers.

He did not find anything and wished me a pleasant say with only a warning.

I have other similar stories about Fed agent persistence but I hope you get the point.

How did he see the title was salvage unless you had literally just then bought the van and not yet registered it?

Originally Posted by posplayr

You can easily avoid the limitation by parking within 500 ft of a facility.

That was kind of the point I was getting at.

Matching fresh and gray tank capacities isn't going to happen in my van unless I manage to install a time space wormhole to stuff half of a gray tank into. But that is okay. From the best I can tell, every single factory built RV that has a fresh and a gray tank, the gray tank is always smaller, usually by 1/3 to 1/2 the capacity, so if fresh tank is 30 gallons gray is 20, or even 15.

And with the restrictions you list, and these are special use areas, not the normal dispersed camping most folks go for, would keep me within that acceptable zone due to the port o potty. I guess they want to be sure I have somewhere convenient to dump my black tank if it gets full at 2:00 A.M. (Their vault toilet leaps to mind).

Mind you, California is a very special case that doesn't dance to the same drummer the rest of the country does. It wouldn't suprise me if they had Buzz Lightyear climb under the van with a Star Trek Tricorder to measure up tank capacities.

I had a 65 VW Westfalia in Arizona that I had sold to a guy, a former college classmate of mine, that had actually titled it, and registered it in Arizona and then moved not super long after to Los Angeles. That was in 1991. I received a letter in 2009 from the City of Los Angeles that my 1965 VW Westfalia van was in their impound lot. Apparently California doesn't have a database that is up to, well at the time, within the past 2 decades... I probably should have bailed it out but never would have gotten the paperwork back straight on it and it was probably trashed.

[posplayr]

Originally Posted by dbhosttexas

How did he see the title was salvage unless you had literally just then bought the van and not yet registered it?

I mentioned I was driving a little fast which is the reason the CHP stopped me. I bought the Van from an older guy in Pasadena with the salvage title. I don't recall exactly but I think it had a little rear quarter panel fender bender.

This was over thirty years ago and I don't recall questioning the CHP. i just let him go about his business and he let me go.

Poptop vans have always been expensive so maybe he questioned the VIN and wanted to check the motro/trans serial numbers to see if it was on a hot sheet.

The point remains, the CHP did go well beyond what I would have expected including crawling under the vehicle. The title was transferred/registered in my name with insurance so I was not too concerned about it being stolen.

similar to your story, I had a 1964 Chevy Chevelle SS I bought my senior year of HS and drove through college. After I graduated, back now in CA) and started working in 1980 I bought a newer 1969 Datsun Roadster 2000. Anyway, I gave the Chevelle to my brother who sold it I think and a few years later I got a similar letter about the car being in an impound lot down in LA. I sent a letter to the DMV saying I no longer owned the car.

The CA DMV will hound you for such things so best to take care of them.

[dbhosttexas]

Originally Posted by posplayr

...The CA DMV will hound you for such things so best to take care of them.

Well, I did send them a letter when I received that wierd notification telling them of the sale and subsequent title transfers, but to be blunt, I don't live in California, the title was an Arizona title and had been transferred out of my hands nearly 2 decades before I was contacted by Los Santos.

From my perspective, not my circus, not my monkeys. But yes in their inevitable incompetence they can make life difficult for me.

Your side of the road encounter sounds like an unwarranted search and was potentially a legal overrreach. Insuring everything was kopacetic on a rebuilt title should have been handled by the DMV before a rebuild title was issued. Not a side of the road cops responsibility.

Oh well, as you said long time ago, so you were probably a young driver, speeding, in a van, cop wanted to mess with you.

Per the regulations you posted, and those are regulations, not the same as law, I would have some issues with those areas. No shock there, no built in toilet so no reason to be shocked...

Back to the original idea though.

At least a 10 gallon tank, external. I am likely going to need to get it custom made if it will go where I want it to. You posted a link to a 9 gallon but can't fit that and the 25 gallon I have in the same slot where the spare is now...

I am personally way more concerned about sink / food bit water than shower water, but not totally unconcerned about shower water. HOWEVER, shower water is easy enough to deal with. Do "Navy" showers. Wet down stop. Soap up, Turn back on rinse off, stop. Minimize water use which is necessary anyway, capture in mini doggie pool, and use to douse campfire if needed, if full capture required transfer to flexible water carrier. They don't take up much space when empty, and with a navy shower, can easily hold 3 showers or more of gray water.

As little water as I go through, honestly could probably leave the capture vessel in the sun and let it evaporate...

[posplayr]

Originally Posted by dbhosttexas

Per the regulations you posted, and those are regulations, not the same as law, I would have some issues with those areas. No shock there, no built in toilet so no reason to be shocked...

Our US police state with an unwieldy group of unelected bureaucrats pass regulations that have the effect of law. If you get a ticket for a $1000 violation you can tell it to the judge; I'm sure he will be sympathetic to the technicality of your argument.


If you read the thread, you will see there are people with first-hand experience of the enforcement of said "guidelines"


SUMMARY: The Bureau of Land
Management (BLM) Yuma, Palm
Springs-South Coast, and El Centro
Field Offices are: (1) Adjusting the
Special Recreation Permit (SRP) fees for
recreational use of Long-Term Visitor
Areas (LTVA), and (2) amending the
supplementary rules applying to the
LTVA Program. The BLM State
Directors are authorized to adjust SRP
fees for recreational use of special areas,
as they find it necessary (43 CFR
2932.31(d)). The amendment of the
supplementary rules is only a technical
change that eliminates the need to
reprint the Supplementary Rule
pamphlet after every change in the
LTVA fee schedule. The amendment is
not a substantive change in the visitor
rules of conduct for the LTVAs.
DATES: Effective date: September 25,
2007.

https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...r%2018%20U.S.C.

Sec. 35. Penalties

Under the Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976 (43 U.S.C. 1733(a)), if you knowingly and willfully violate or fail to comply with any of the supplementary rules provided in this notice, BLM may revoke your LTVA permit, and you may be subject to a fine under 18 U.S.C. 3571 or other penalties in accordance with 43 U.S.C. 1733.



https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...r%2018%20U.S.C.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...pC-sec3571.pdf

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...II-sec1733.pdf

[posplayr]

To be clear, my earlier 1:1 Fresh to Waste ratio I previously mentioned I could find no evidence of it!

My recollection is I saw it somewhere but I can't find anything even close to that.

[dbhosttexas]

If you would have kept reading what I said, I KNOW I would not be compliant with those regulations. And I am aware that regulations carry legal penalties, like violating the prohibition against refilling disposable DOT39 cylinders and transporting them, which I do not do but MANY campers do. I have the Flame King certified refillable 1lb cylinders instead...

Or FCC Part 95 Subpart D Citizens Band Radio Service regulations limiting power output to 4w on AM and FM modes and 12w PEP on Single Sideband, yet ebay, Amazon, and countless other sellers are full of CB Radio Linear amplifiers that are selling to SOMEBODY... (proper well grounded and tuned antenna does a LOT more for you than some big RF amplifier if you didn't already know...)

Each are policed at various intensities, For a good example there is a guy called Mud Duck In The Desert out of Albequerque that pushes so much dirty power he interferes with Channel 19 across the lower 48, and WELL into Canada and Mexico. And he has been allowed to operate that way for years.

Am I willing to risk something like that?

Nope.

But it is still violation of regulation, and not law. The difference is miniscule yes, but it exists.

[dbhosttexas]

Originally Posted by posplayr

To be clear, my earlier 1:1 Fresh to Waste ratio I previously mentioned I could find no evidence of it!

My recollection is I saw it somewhere but I can't find anything even close to that.

I would not be at all surprised if that was a regulation somewhere. But RV tank capacities being what they typically are, you typically see a 3-2 if not even a 2-1 ratio on most factory build / installed units. IF by some miracle I can manage 13 gallons of gray, I will be just barely over 2-1 with my 25 gallon fresh tank.

I have seen the 10 gallon onboard gray tank standard before, even a long time ago when I owned that Westfalia in Arizona. There was some private campground that required 10 gallons of gray water built in to be considered self contained.

Makes me wonder what they expect the tent campers to do...

The crazy part of me wants to build a plumbing / bathrooom trailer that would house a, well bathroom and all the needed heaters, tanks, pumps etc... Basically a tow behind tag along for those of us with a standard van instead of the long vans...

[dbhosttexas]

25 gallon tank just arrived. Scientifically calibrated eyeball says I can probably go with the same width tank as the 25 and get at least a 10 gallon tank between the frame rails. Gotta drop that spare tire to be certain. I am 100% certain if I reroute exhaust to in front of the rear wheel... Could probably fit a 15 gallon tank in that space...

The EL vans have an additional 18" between the rear axle and the rear bumper, and this would be a no brainer. I would have been able to go with a 25 and a 20 without even giving it a second thought. It's not often I have buyers remorse on a standard length van, but when trying to undermount water tanks, yeah I wish I had gotten a longer van. Next time I try to park at the gas station to run in and grab a soda and road snacks will slap that right out of me though...

[Orv]

Originally Posted by posplayr

These are not guidelines they are the Federal Laws in camping areas in CA and AZ.

I can assure you they do enforce the laws on federal lands as well as in California. If you read the thread posted you will see they the Gov has recruited private citizen agents to alert the rangers to anything untoward.

I'm not sure how I (or anyone else) would prove holding tank capacities even if they enforced them. I would think that these laws would come up if you were blatantly dumping wastewater on the ground, but probably not otherwise.

My setup does (to the best of my knowledge) meet the earlier-posted rule for a 10 gallon holding tank, though.

But to be honest I've never even seen a ranger when I've camped on BLM land, except for one instance when people were camping at a developed campground during COVID and they showed up to clear it out.

The only time anyone has asked me about my van's plumbing was when I tried to get an RV insurance policy, and was declined for not having a permanently-installed toilet.

Some 30 years ago I was driving ho,e on the 101 in Ventura County (near Camarillo). I was driving this 1984 VW pop top Westfalia a little fast and a CHP stopped me. He gave me a warning but then saw the title was salvage (I had just bought it ).

He directs me off the freeway and we wait for backup in a carpool parking lot. After the other CHP arrives, the first cop dons his overalls and climbs under the VW bus to check the engine/trans serial numbers.

He did not find anything and wished me a pleasant say with only a warning.

I have other similar stories about Fed agent persistence but I hope you get the point.

I'm a little puzzled by your story since it involves the CHPs, not the feds, and isn't about the topic at hand, but rather about them (apparently) suspecting your salvage-titled van was stolen.

Is your point just that you distrust all authority in general?

[posplayr]

Originally Posted by Orv

I'm a little puzzled by your story since it involves the CHPs, not the feds, and isn't about the topic at hand, but rather about them (apparently) suspecting your salvage-titled van was stolen.

Is your point just that you distrust all authority in general?

That is a loaded question that I will not justify with an answer.

At this point, I have already posted too much, but since it seems to have been for naught but I will spell this out.

Some people who are from "out of the area", are not familiar with or understand that park rangers represent the law; they are not some kind of etiquette monitors. They carry a gun for a reason.

Even your friendly "park host" represents the law, and you will figure that out soon enough by not following their instructions.

Any dealing with hazardous materials in CA is taken very seriously, so again you are forewarned about potential consequences and a low tolerance for not following the "rules".