Heat for a Sprinter

[windguy]

Originally Posted by kmessinger

We have an electric hot water heater which does great but we never use it. DW prefers to heat water on the stove as part of her dishwashing technique. Stove top will use the small canisters which I already carry for an outdoor grill or a 1-1/2 gallon tank. I am going to build an sealed compartment perhaps under the stove top with either a door to the outside or if the door is inside a vent to the outside.

Since the D2 is not tied to the cooling system - it is an Airtronic not a Hydronic I don't worry about the cooling system, plate, etc. Also in an emergency there is the heater on the Sprinter itself. I have the idle controller so I can kick the idle up to 2k rpm and run it for a couple of hours.
Keith

ah, you have an instant hot water heater that is electric
I like your small canister idea. I'm sure this new mod will be well documented on your website

Why does the canister has to be in a sealed compartment with venting?

As long as the D2 isn't too noisy compared to a Suburban and the diesel exhaust doesn't get back into the van I'd be okay with this solution.

[kmessinger]

Actually, it is not an instant hot water heater. It looks like a minature home hot water heater but is electric not gas. It draws power from the battery which is supplied by the solar panels.

If I go with the 1-1/2 gallon, that has to be sealed off from the living quarters. With a cannister I would not have to do that so that is what I will most likely do. I have to make sure my stove top will operate with the pressure from a cannister. I think it might be lower than a normal propane tank. Any thoughts on that?

Keith

[springer]

Its an interesting discussion for me, and I'd like to thank everyone.

I think it will be the D4 airtronic for heat, the factory Hydronic with a user installed (me) flatplate for hot water (I guess SMB won't install the flatplate inside), and the stove being the only thing running propane, as I think not having to fill that tank on the road often will be a big plus.

I have the idea of the floor being 1/4" polyboard on the bottom, 1/2 foil faced closed cell foam in the middle, topped with 3/8" polyboard. I'll need to have some separator runners of some incompressable material so the foam isn't carrying a load. It should be around R-5 or so for a floor 1-1/8 thick.

A little heat pad under the tank, and insulating the water lines should likely handle any problem there. I think a small pad on the flatplate may be in order also since I'll be insulating it heavily to keep engine heat out of the inside.

Now, how is SMB in working with their customers doing some of the work themselves? I think I want to insulate, do the floor, and install much of the utilities myself. I'd want them to do the propane, gray water, all cabinetry and furnishings, and the finish work.

Greg

[windguy]

Originally Posted by kmessinger

Actually, it is not an instant hot water heater. It looks like a minature home hot water heater but is electric not gas. It draws power from the battery which is supplied by the solar panels.

got it. a tank heater run by electric, not propane.

Originally Posted by kmessinger

If I go with the 1-1/2 gallon, that has to be sealed off from the living quarters. With a cannister I would not have to do that so that is what I will most likely do. I have to make sure my stove top will operate with the pressure from a cannister. I think it might be lower than a normal propane tank. Any thoughts on that?

if you can run a two burner Coleman propane stove with a small gas canister, seems to me you could do the same with a two burner cooktop. would it be easy to test it out?

So you're saying when you get to a certain size propane tank it has to be mounted outside, not inside for fear of it leaking?

I've refilled those small bottles from a 5-gal bbq tank when we were remodeling the kitchen, which took more than a year. Pretty easy to fill. I'd do a bunch of them at one time using a refill valve that I got at Harbor Freight.

[kmessinger]

Originally Posted by windguy

So you're saying when you get to a certain size propane tank it has to be mounted outside, not inside for fear of it leaking?

It doesn't have to be stored outside but if it leaked, propane being heavier than air, it would settle to floor lever where the Espar heater is, the inverter, etc. I don't think it would be very safe. A cannister would be safer just because of the smaller quantity but still has some danger.

Keith

[windguy]

Originally Posted by kmessinger

It doesn't have to be stored outside but if it leaked, propane being heavier than air, it would settle to floor lever where the Espar heater is, the inverter, etc. I don't think it would be very safe. A cannister would be safer just because of the smaller quantity but still has some danger.

Keith

got it. makes sense. I guess the same issue applies to any part of the propane system that enters the van. If a line cracks/breaks or a valve malfunctions, you would have the same results even though the source/tank is mounted outside. I'm guessing these systems are pretty safe and reliable since propane is widely used in RVs.

[windguy]

Springer,
have you seen an Espar sizing chart like this?
http://www.boatelectric.com/espsize2.htm#sizing

EDIT - I see BW already posted a link to this on page 2.
dang, he beat me to the draw

[windguy]

Not looking to hijack this thread but I was curious about the specs of an Airtronic vs Suburban furnace. Just trying to understand what's available on the market.

It appears that the D2 is a smaller heater at 7,500 btu/hr compared to the Suburban NT-16S, their smallest heater at 16,000 btu/hr. They both draw the same power at 2.8Amps but the Suburban is putting out more heat so it's not a good direct comparison. The D4 goes up to 13,650 btu/hr at 3.3 Amps and the D5 on the Large setting is 16,400 btu/hr at 6.7 Amps, which seems to be the closest comparison. Is that a valid comparison? If so, this would imply that the Suburban unit is more efficient from an Amp draw standpoint. Maybe I'm not looking at this right.

I realize that the quieter system of the two would trump power usage and the fuel source issues too (propane vs diesel). It would be nice if they provided a noise rating with each unit like they do with bath fans. I guess part of the noise equation has to do with where and how it's mounted.

AIRTRONIC LINK USED
D2 - http://www.espar.com/html/products/airtronic2.html
D4 - http://www.espar.com/html/products/airtronic4.html

SUBURBAN LINK USED
NT-16S - http://www.rvcomfort.com/suburban/products/nt_light.php
(click on the Dimension Chart to see the specs)

[springer]

Originally Posted by windguy

Not looking to hijack this thread but I was curious about the specs of an Airtronic vs Suburban furnace. Just trying to understand what's available on the market.

It appears that the D2 is a smaller heater at 7,500 btu/hr compared to the Suburban NT-16S, their smallest heater at 16,000 btu/hr. They both draw the same power at 2.8Amps but the Suburban is putting out more heat so it's not a good direct comparison. The D4 goes up to 13,650 btu/hr at 3.3 Amps and the D5 on the Large setting is 16,400 btu/hr at 6.7 Amps, which seems to be the closest comparison. Is that a valid comparison? If so, this would imply that the Suburban unit is more efficient from an Amp draw standpoint. Maybe I'm not looking at this right.

You are looking at this differently than I am.

I think the most used setting will be the lowest setting on the D-4. At that setting it will draw .6 amps per hour (about 15 amp-hours a day) and consume .8 gal of fuel a day. I'm sure when it gets really cold, the need will be for higher settings, but these are reasonable consumption figures in my book.

Originally Posted by windguy

I realize that the quieter system of the two would trump power usage and the fuel source issues too (propane vs diesel). It would be nice if they provided a noise rating with each unit like they do with bath fans. I guess part of the noise equation has to do with where and how it's mounted.

AIRTRONIC LINK USED
D2 - http://www.espar.com/html/products/airtronic2.html
D4 - http://www.espar.com/html/products/airtronic4.html

SUBURBAN LINK USED
NT-16S - http://www.rvcomfort.com/suburban/products/nt_light.php
(click on the Dimension Chart to see the specs)

Quiet would be good. On low with a muffler, the Espar won't be a problem.

I'm more interested in looking down at the fuel gauge on the dash and knowing I have enough fuel for my plans, or else top off the diesel. There is always guesswork with propane, and the amount of BTUs in the tank are much smaller. I'd just as soon squirt the diesel than hunt propane down for a 5 gallon fill.

Espars are a bit more of a pain, cost more, and are a bit more convienient in my mind.

The propane furnace are simple, cheaper, don't stink, but they install through the side of the van and require more special fuel runs to keep them filled and ready to go.

Greg

[windguy]

Originally Posted by springer

You are looking at this differently than I am.

agree. mostly cause we have different design requirements.
the heater for me is something I don't plan to use very often and for you it will be part of your survival camping in that huge icebox called Wisconsin
too bad you don't have shore power at night so you can run a small electric heater and have an electric blanket
Good luck with the design. keep us posted on your plans.