Battery Isolators,Separators, and Switches?

[SteveW]

Great thread !!!

Can anyone offer some commentary on battery combiners ??

I'm specifically considering a Yadina 100...

http://www.yandina.com/c100InfoR3.htm

Thanks,

Steve W
Southern California

[coyotearms]

A battery combiner is the same animal as a battery separator. This thread talks mostly about the Sure Power uni-directional separator 1314-200, Sure Power bi-directional 1315-2000 and the Blue Sea 7622 and is also applicable to the 7620. I have also run across a HDM BAS-Series (http://www.hdm-sys.com/pdf/hdm_bas_specs.pdf) that is very similar to the Sure Power. The one you mention seems wimpy and designed for basically banks of one battery each. Read this entire thread carefully to understand some of the pros and cons of the Sure Power and Blue Sea devices and the difference between uni- and bi-directional ones. Blue Sea has numerous separators and other devices for managing battery banks---their site is highly educational! Also read up on the difference between a separator and isolator, which is a uni-directional solid state device. They can get pretty costly for high currents. I don't think you will necessarily find someone that can hand you the perfect solution for your particular situation.

[REF]

Thought I would chime in on this as I've just replaced the original isolator after it went bad. I went with the sure power 1315A separator, 100A continuous, bi-directional. I was originally looking for the 200A version figuring I've got a 130A alternator and will need the larger separator to match but was told by the very knowledgable folks at Smith AE that alternators do not generally run at full capacity, the separator is good for 100A continuous and up to 300A(or was it 200A) bursts. The guy I talked to said that if the 200A continuous versions do not see that kind of continuous higher amperage, the solenoids and the contacts, which are a different metal than on the 100A unit, will start building up a soot because it's not being burned off by lower amperage running through them, eventually the unit will no longer switch. So before you put those 200A units in, might want to confirm my findings.

[Scalf77]

What you were told I would agree with. It does take a good amount of current to keep the contacts of the solenoid clean, this is a common problem with high current solenoids. I would still put the 100 amp version in this category. Both solenoids the last time I checked were rated at 50,000 cycles which would be in line with silver alloy contacts. Copper contacts would be more around 25,000 cycles. A bigger cause would be the current difference when making contact, I would generally agree that the 100 amp version would have a lower wetting (minimum current to keep contact clean) then the 200 amp version. The original Surepower unit that sportsmobile installed on my rig was the 100 amp version, when inquiring with them on another issue, I had sent them a picture of the Surepower unit and they informed me that I had the wrong unit and and sent me the 200 amp replacement. I do not know why they believed I needed the 200 amp version. I expect that you will be fine, with the 100 amp version, because even if you put out close to max on the alternator, a good portion of that is going to you Van System and not the house anyway. I expect if you were upgrading from a isolator to separator that your wiring would be the limiting factor. I would not try to use the house as a emergency starter.

More than a few people have experienced the dirty contact issue with the surepower units.

-greg

[REF]

Greg-thanks, can you elaborate on why I wouldn't want to use the house as an emergency starter. I am having that feature wired up as we speak, the only difference with wiring between the 2 units was adding a ground wire on the separator I think, otherwise, I'm good? The 100A separator should be able to handle the momentary burst of power.

[Scalf77]

Rick,
Sorry for my lack of clarity, using it as a emergency starter reference was more to the fact that you said you replaced an isolator. I think of that as a diode based device and they traditionally have not had the same wiring size requirements that you would need for using it as a starter. I think Surepower recommends 4 gauge if the cable run is less then 10 feet, other wise 2 Gauge for over 10 feet. The inrush current spec for the 100 amp version is 400 amps , for 30 seconds. This is with a cool off time of six mins. So yes if your wire is up to size you would be fine. I would also make sure they fuse the ground connection with a 10 amp fuse.

-greg

[Scalf77]

Rick,
Also to use the start assist feature you would need to run that tab to a 12 volts source (house battery ) though a momentary switch. I and others do not recommend wiring it to the start circuit of the van.

-greg

[coyotearms]

Originally Posted by REF

Thought I would chime in on this as I've just replaced the original isolator after it went bad. I went with the sure power 1315A separator, 100A continuous, bi-directional. I was originally looking for the 200A version figuring I've got a 130A alternator and will need the larger separator to match but was told by the very knowledgable folks at Smith AE that alternators do not generally run at full capacity, the separator is good for 100A continuous and up to 300A(or was it 200A) bursts. The guy I talked to said that if the 200A continuous versions do not see that kind of continuous higher amperage, the solenoids and the contacts, which are a different metal than on the 100A unit, will start building up a soot because it's not being burned off by lower amperage running through them, eventually the unit will no longer switch. So before you put those 200A units in, might want to confirm my findings.

After what I found out when updating engine batteries and battery separator, I was happy to pay the money for a marine quality Blue Sea latching type separator with the 500 A continuous, 2500 A cranking, 100,000 cycle life. Yes, those specs are overkill, but I have the "Extra Heavy Duty Alternator" according to the build sheet (I still don't know the max amps for but could be as high as 200). When I had the Sure Power 200A unit a 125 A fuse between the house batteries and separator blew, which was replaced with a 175, but I don't know if it happened during charging or emergency starting, which I had done a few times. So those currents can get up there. The Blue Sea also has a nice feature if used with a solar system that takes into account bulk and float phases of the solar system.

So what else did I not like about the Sure Power? First, I was on my 2nd unit (the 1314-200) and its emergency start circuit crapped out. The 1st one was the one that SMB Indiana put in, but because I have a significant amount of solar it took me a month or so in the summer to realize what they put in was most likely dead on arrival---did they even check?

Second of all, when it is latched I discovered it is too hot to touch. When I checked the specs, I found out the "relay drive current" is 1.5 A just to keep the contacts closed. That is 20 W or 15 AmHr every 10 hrs the solar is charging batteries after the charge controller goes above 13.2 V until it drops to 12.8. Sorry, but that seems like a terrible waste on when you live in cloudy Seattle!

Lastly, I ran across a Sure Power safety recall that I thought applied to the model I had http://www.cooperindustries.com/cont...l_info_NA.html. When I called about it and gave my serial number (10002198) I was told, no, it was the 100 A model that was being recalled and it has letters following the numbers. I was reassured that mine had no safety issues, but THE SERIAL NUMBER WAS FOR A 15 YR OLD UNIT! This time shame on Van Specialties who put the 2nd one in. Both Van Specialties and Sure Power are even both in Oregon!

It sounds like I am venting, and I am, but this forum is about passing along helpful information that I think we all want to know about, and that is especially true for everyone that has a 100 A Sure Power unit.

[jage]

Originally Posted by REF

Greg-thanks, can you elaborate on why I wouldn't want to use the house as an emergency starter. I am having that feature wired up as we speak, the only difference with wiring between the 2 units was adding a ground wire on the separator I think, otherwise, I'm good? The 100A separator should be able to handle the momentary burst of power.

I bought a 400A separator for my replacement, but you can always throw some a single small jumper cable between the posts on the separator to make the connection if you're not sure about the 100A. This is also necessary if the switch side (house in my case) has so little power it cannot connect the switch. I have no idea if 100A is sufficient to carry starting a diesel, so I can't guess.*

That said I have had bad luck with starters (a string of Autozone batteries under warranty) and have used the house batteries to jump many, many times. It's highly recommended as a backup- although the way my van came wired it originally manually connected the separator with key-on, s.t. I was jumping the starters from the house with every start. That I'm totally against because it masks problems with your starters, and when your house are flat you have nothing- it should be an emergency jump, like any jump from another vehicle- only to get you going, not an every-time-you-start assist.

*Poked around a bit and it looks like a 7.3L averages 300A-400A to start- thing here is if your starter batteries are not completely flat, then you shouldn't be drawing the full amperage through the separator, just... you know, a boost. Alternatively if your starters are fully flat, I would skip right to the one jumper cable from post to post to avoid the big draw across the separator.

[coyotearms]

Wouldn't it be better to just put one of those nice high current Blue Sea switches across the separator as a back up? Depending on the space available and the kind of cable (lugs on each end that need a wrench to make a safe connection or hefty clamps like on jumper cables or a jumper cable) in tight spaces could be a bit problematic with sparks flying around as the current could be substantial before tuning over the engine depending on what the problem is. I am only thinking this way because things are so tight were my separator is, I mounted it upside down (with Blue Sea's blessing as long as it is in a dry area) to keep the + terminals away from lots of other - stuff!

The 7622 is in the upper right in the shadows. Note how close the + terminals would be to the grounding post if right side up: